Ladder Council

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Ammazzalepri » November 11th, 2017, 1:15 am

I attach these 3 matches with ElderofZion and Rigor on Maxplank.
It seems that the problems of this map may be the position of the second recruitkeep and that the problems relieved by Kipples are right.
These matches have showed thant P2 as chaotic has a good chance pushing in the north moving the leader in the two north recruitkeeps. But if he somehow doesn't do that, he easily will lose all the south at the next dawn.
You can read more opinions in the chat of the games, especially in the loyal vs knalgha one.
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Horus2 » November 17th, 2017, 11:53 am

Let's get back to action.

I initiate a new mappack survey. If you are unhappy about the shortcomings of the previous voting, this is the prime time to change that.
Rules are currently the same as previous, except for the number of voters. I think the high standard of 8 points for the competitive pack was not the issue, but the effect of a single individual with an extreme rating, especially if a few others could not measure its goodness due to their lack of experience on that particular map. Hopefully the additional voters will flatten out the peaks.
I want to see the number of undecided votes minimised! If you are close to form an opinion but you still have to play a few matches on the map, take your time, challenge other members and non-members. It paints a bleak image of your contribution if you are not willing to invest time into looking deeper into the issues.
The players who are eligible to vote are all the people who, even if just temporarily, participated in our little project. This means:
  • Horus2
  • Krogen
  • Mint
  • Oook
  • Ammazzalepri
  • Computer_player
  • Danniel_BR
  • ElderofZion
  • Rigor
Further additions to our staff is considered. If someone wants to join this, pm me, and i will discuss your inclusion with the core council members.
Read the rules carefully!:
Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Krogen » November 17th, 2017, 3:37 pm

Here are my two maps, Untainted Paradise (not in Sandbox yet) and the new version of Karphiol Valley (already in Sandbox)
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(P1 now has a different starting position to prevent OP rushes.)
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And Untainted Paradise, or the "pretty map" as Horus would say.
"A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep." - Tywin Lannister

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Re: Ladder Council

Post by potyi-HUN » November 17th, 2017, 8:17 pm

Hi all

This is my first map: Phenywesh

I am curious about your opinion and criticism. If something needs to be repaired, I'll fix it.

There are pictures as well. :)
Phenywesh 311.jpg
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Re: Ladder Council

Post by ElderofCheese » November 18th, 2017, 9:53 am

I feel that most of my previous ratings of the maps still represent what I think about them so I will repoeat them, but I will make adjustments to some, and expand on the other. Also I will rate the new maps.

Aethermaw - 7/10 I don't remember any particularly bad experiences associated with it but I am not a big fan of it, I think even though the map isn't that big it can feel big because of the starting gold. It can be very dynamic with a fast attack, the impassable castle tiles allow for some interesting tactics, the whirlpool recruit is a gamble that can either work well or end horribly for the unit recruited and I like that, but again, the low starting gold can be an issue.

Arcanclave Citadel - 6/10 I don't like it, the passage fighting can be annoying and I feel like it can turn into an attritious game with a lot of trading in the bottlenecked passages, especially with such high starting gold. It can be hard for factions which like space and don't particularly like being worn down in narrow corridors and here I mean drakes, I have had a drake vs elf game on this map recently, I was drake and it wasn't very pleasant for me. And I think that regardless of faction the huge starting gold means that the game can be very long.

Astral Port - 4/10 Not really much to say, a classical Quetzalcoatl map made to be impossible to defend and to favor all kinds of fast units, so strategies like cav rush are preferred.

Caves of the Basilisk - 10/10 I was not sure whether to give it 9/10 or 10/10 but I think I have always had good games on this map, and I don't mean I was winning on it more than on the other maps but its just that I always enjoyed playing on this map.

Clearing Gushes - 10/10 - It is a really great map and I love it, maybe I should give it 10/10? After my reconsideration of the Swamp of Dread map I think I will.

Crescent Lake - 6/10 A weird and very open one. But I think I like the idea with that bridge in the middle. I do not know that much about that map but after more reflection from the like 2 or 3 matches I played on it, it may be a bit too big and wide, so I will give it 6/10, I don't remember spotting or hearing about any obvious issues that completely break the balance of it, so it should be in advanterous I think. I think it needs more testing.

Den of Onis - 8/10 The villages in the caves can be tricky, they can be a weakness either for you or your opponent so I think its not terrible, it is an interesting feature. I think the map should have 8/10

Devious Dockyard - 5/10 This one is broken and I wouldn't include it in conservative mappack, it is because p1 can rush and take p2's village extremelly quickly giving p2 no chance to even take it before he does, but that actually doesn't make me dislike it (especially when Im p1 xD) and I quite enjoy the design of it.
But after reconsideration because its broken it deserves way lower rating than I gave it, and I would refuse to play on it even if I was p1 for the sake of consistency nowadays.

Elensefar Courtyard - 8/10 I think its fine and I quite like playing on it. Side note - possibly broken for khalifate because of the liminal corridor.

Fallenstar Lake - 8/10 - potentially campy but not necessarily, there is also play on the bottom. I think its good enough to be included in the competitive.

Hamlets - 9/10 Some argue its campy, I think its fine.

Heart Mountains Caves - 6/10 I think this one is weird, open and has fancy villages, but I don't have a lot of experience on it.

Hellhole - 10/10 Good map. Also as I have noticed it can spring very dynamic, fun and seemingly balanced gameplay because of the five fronts, its unique.

Hornshark Island - 7/10 Unorthodox but fun gameplay with the loyal units, I do not believe there are any strong and apparent balance issues with it, though I remember the front village can be rushed rather hard. Should it be in the competitive despite its unusual features? I am not very convinced, it is a bit too non-standard and unorthodox, and I am a bit scaredt here are indeed some balance issues with it because of the units that complicate matters, I haven't played a lot on it.

Howling Ghost Badlands - 9/10

Karphiol Valley - 5/10 I came to a conclusion that its broken, the villages are far apart but the worst problem is the isolated side village that the opponent can easily switch to attack, but because of the swamp it was very hard to try to defend it. I expanded on it in the PYRA thread I believe.

Maxplank - 5/10 I played about 2 ladder games on it and it is playable but since the movement and p1 advantage has been proven with good degree of certaininty to be a significant balance issue I am not sure if it even should be in advanterous, but I think I did get convinced that it shouldn't and I wouldn't play on it for a ladder match.

Rice Terraces - 7/10 I like the aesthetics and the map seems to work well, also I enjoyed it in PYRA.

Rime Grotto - 2/10 Now that I think about it, I hate this map. I explained in detail why it is bad in my other post.

Ruined Passage - 5/10 At the moment one of the 2 maps from Bonobopack I refuse to play, the other one being Scarred Foothills. My main problem with it is that the map is asymmetric and the p2 side is just superior to the p1 side, p1 has significantly less defendable water village, has the sand biome which is hard to move through and hard to defend, if your opponent is drake you are screwed, if he flies to the forward castle next to it you are done, you lose the entire side and usually the back village probably as well. Another reason why sand biome is so terrible is the ruin chokepoint that separates it, p2 has no such hindrance on his side, if during attack your opponent places a unit on it the side is cut from reinforcements (and going to the sand castle similarly cuts you off from rest of the map and can be suicidal because of how hard the side is to defend).
Overall because of these features the p2 side is easier to defend, probably even significantly easier, I have a ladder game on the map as p2 loyalist vs p1 hodor (which is ridiculous but still seems less popular than some of my other way less ridiculous games) where at the end I had an army of 8 lvl 2 units (1 of them was about to lvl up) and 1 lvl 3 royal guard, it felt like playing a campaign. A display of weakness of the hodor? Bad play? Maybe, but map also had to contribute to it, I have never seen anything like that before, I bet even Dauntless in his legendary game as drakes vs orcs didn't have as many levelled up units at one time.

Ruphus Isle - 8/10

Sablestone Delta - 8/10 With good opp leader like sharpshoter it can be brutal to defend, impossible even, there are also tricks with side lines, but overall I think its good enough for competitive.

Scarred Foothills - 5/10 One of the 2 maps I refuse to play on.

Serpend Ford - 7/10 Can be tricky and it feels a bit weird to play, I wouldn't include it in competitive.

Silverhead Crossing - 8/10

Sulla's Ruins - 9/10

Swamp of Dread - 9/10 Overall a good map, it would have been one of the best if it werent for 1. Drakes are very strong here, too strong and op? Not really but it should be pointed out. 2. There are some issues I discovered with late game blob armies, with bigger armies the features of each side of the map become more apparent. Even forcing the fight on one side of the map can be a huge advantage for one side, one side of the map for each side is much wider and much harder to defend, with big armies it can be impossible even as its impossible to cover the entire frontier, it was probably intended but still on the other side you have a significantly easier village to defend, the benefits from side advantage seem more significant here than on other maps. And, even if you give up one village the back swamp village can be still attacked pretty easily and made impossible to defend too, probably also intended but still, and its not easy to take back if it is taken. Usually it doesn't make much of a difference and gameplay here is still fun, but now I wouldn't be as confident here with some factions as before, but I think it still deserves to be in competitive, so I will give it 9/10

The Freelands - 9/10 A bit boring, and there is the loyalist cav and horseman exploit, still it deserves 9/10

The Walls of Pyrennis - 8/10

Thousand Stings Garrison - 8/10

Tombs of Kesorak - 8/10 It would be 9/10 if it weren't for the fact that drakes are very strong here. And the rush can be very tricky, but I like the map

Twin Goddesses - 7/10

Weldyn Channel - 9/10

Wellington - 7/10 I have played only a few games here, I am not that sure about it, 7 seems ok

Untainted Paradise - 7/10 I only played 1 game on it I remember, it didnt seem that bad so basing on that one game I think I will give it 7

Phenywesh - 7/10 after fungal spread it seems pretty good, 7

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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Krogen » November 18th, 2017, 6:38 pm

Here are my votes (I'll only write reasons where i changed my vote with more than one point or if i feel necessary.):
"A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep." - Tywin Lannister

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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Gallifax » January 7th, 2018, 9:53 am

It's nice to see some more activity here. Seems like there has been progress and people involved actually seem to listen, which is new.

And as it looks like there is more activity on wesnoth in general as well. A bit more players again compared to 3 years back.

Does anyone know how to recover password from ladder? I just lost it, cause I changed it and my addon lost it somehow. Cackfiend doesnt seem to read his pm here, no idea if someone reads on ladder council forum, posted there as well.

I know the password I used for recovery process was correct, I saw it when I edited password, still won't work.

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Re: Ladder Council

Post by Krogen » January 10th, 2018, 7:28 pm

In case anyone cares:
I just noticed that the last time i uploaded an old version of Untainted Paradise here, due to some issues with my folders. Here is the correct version: (The cfg is the same, but it's also here.)
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"A lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep." - Tywin Lannister

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