SXRPG Version 5.2.3 - now on 1.12 Server

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

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Mabuse
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Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SXRPG Version 5.1.4 - now on 1.12 Server

Post by Mabuse » July 6th, 2015, 11:28 pm

Thanks for report -
.. new Version!

Could have waited for a new Version, but this Bug needed to be fixed asap :)



5.1.4:

BUG-FIX:
---------

- On Arcade mode player 3 was not revived due to a typo in a filter tag
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

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Mystery
Posts: 55
Joined: June 17th, 2009, 3:16 pm

Re: SXRPG Version 4.9.13 - now on 1.12 Server

Post by Mystery » July 7th, 2015, 10:26 am

Mabuse wrote:in any case, im working on a new map, and also some Boss-battles will become harder on all maps.
enemies with death-aura now deal damage when you ENTER the radius of the unit, luckily resistances apply ;)
(so all proves wether a map is doable by 1 unit only will only be registered for the upcoming 5.0.0 version)
CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.

Actually, I had last week off work so I spent the majority of my weekend trying to solo Temple of Bones on Expert difficulty. I threw away about 7 hours of work Sunday, around Turn 105 in the upper-left area of the map when I ended my turn one tile too close to a buff-as-**** Ghoulmage who owned me with the Charge Lightning weapon. :( Now that I'm back to a regular work schedule, might be a while before I get around to trying again but I think I can carry another run like that to completion if I don't make a silly mistake next time...

Balance-wise, if I may say something, I noticed the non-mage classes have Hit and Run in place of the Spellbook. Maybe my view is skewed from my solo-centric play -- it's certainly a required purchase by midgame -- but the Spellbook is so superior it's not even funny. Just for mobility alone, Magic Movement costs almost half of HaR (40g to 75g) and the casting cost is more efficient in every regard: it costs less mana than HaR costs stamina, from what I can tell you gain mana faster than stamina (from spending gold), and MM has higher-tier options (+10 and +15 Move) for even more efficient long-distance travel. Mage's mana items and Roguemage's mobility item also help (sorry Cleric, you lose).

That's not including the Spellbook giving you Magic Healing for no ability point cost (if you want to drop 40g on it) and the option for buying additional spells if you have ability points to spare. I feel like Hit and Run should at least give better mobility, considering the Spellbook's huge advantages elsewhere. I know the non-mage classes also get armor buffs as an additional balancing factor, but is that enough? Maybe it is in a multiplayer environment, where the extra armor lets a couple "tanks" focus more damage types into the 70-80% resist range for good teamplay. (Playing solo, resists have to be balanced since you just get hammered on your weakest ones anyway.)
---
I also think Stunning Shield is too expensive. Magical + Onrush slow is far more economical than Slow + Berserk, while giving you a larger boost in damage dealt : damage taken ratio at accuracy <60%. Even at 60%, Magical is .7/.6 = +16.7% damage which is close to Berserk's flat 1.8dealt/1.5taken = +20%. And Magical probably makes that up by more reliably applying Slow sooner in the engagement. I don't believe you can fight any notable enemies at higher base accuracy such that Magical isn't useful; there are some mobile enemies you can pull into water for 70-80% accuracy but many dangerous recruits fly and bosses don't move from their 50-60% defense tiles.

Magical + Onrush slow costs 635g combined, less in practice if you start with a Magical weapon (whether innate or buying the magic swords). As I pointed out, Magical gives you a similar relative damage boost to Berserk (damage dealt to damage taken) and in my experience, Onrush is still fairly reliable at converting one-turn kills (OTK) even with "only" two rounds of engagement* compared to Berserk's ten. It comes with the slow built in too. Slow + Berserk costs 1000g combined, including Stunning Shield so Slow becomes an "addable" enchant, and perhaps more importantly an ability point! But, again, maybe when it's Turn 150 and you've maxed out on strikes and found a couple ability scrolls, the cost difference no longer matters so much. :P

* Onrush actually presses the engagement up to three rounds, I just double-checked to make sure. You should either fix Onrush to only press for two rounds as described, or fix the description. :) Rage presses for three rounds as it's supposed to do. I dunno if Berserk goes for exactly ten... if both combatants can survive that long.
---
Then of course there's the fact that certain units are just far better than others, even with the class system and buyable weapons that strive to make each character as close to a "blank slate" as possible. But as long as there are multiple viable options, I don't think it's an actual problem. e.g. Dwarves outclass other low-mobility units (like Trolls and Woses) because their terrain costs don't continue to cripple their mobility after also throwing a ton of gold into MP... but hey, you have 3-4 good dorfs to choose from. And multiple decent elves and humans, all the Drake units are viable, anything else that flies is decent at worst.

Everything else looks pretty good in my book. I suppose the 2nd Strike ability on both Rogue classes is kinda ridiculously good, but not really in an imbalancing sort of manner. I don't like the necessity of Cave Explorer on certain units but that sorta goes back to the point that some units just suck. :P Summon Demon... the summoned units are actually pretty strong, but I think it's too clunky. If your demon gets a kill, only your demon gets the MP + attack reset and not your hero unit. If you could do it like the attack spells, where the demon getting a kill could give the reset to your hero (hero alone or both units, either way), that'd make for strategic ways to chain resets for mobility or cover your ass for another turn from more powerful foes if you fail a kill and get stuck.

Because I feel like musing about my solo adventures, I believe the "optimal" unit for solo play is actually the Nightgaunt though there are a few alternatives* one could argue. I did some number-crunching -- base HP and MP, resistances, etc. -- and Nightgault is right near the top of the list of units with the highest innate gold value (the 1-terrain costs and 220% positive resists are huge, plus good starting MP). Skirmisher being built in saves you a valuable ability point, and innate Undead is nice although not a huge deal (Temple of Bones has an early Undead Ring).

*Including...
[*]Elvish Sylph's innate weaponry is that good. Despite flying, they can't go over Unwalkable terrain though.
[*]The Dwarvish Arcanister you just added is a little better than Dwarvish Lord. Less total resists built in than Nightgaunt but no 70% over-resist wasting armor slots. Low starting MP but a great innate weapon. Terrain costs are good for a non-flier.
[*]Spectre is mostly the same as Nightgaunt, but I don't think their better starting weapon makes up for Skirmisher being built in.

But blah blah blah right? :P I only recently returned to check up what's happening with Wesnoth and noticed you started updating this again. It's definitely my favorite way to pass the time in this game, so really thanks for getting back into this for 1.12. SXRPG is awesome.

Mabuse
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Re: SXRPG Version 5.2.0 - now on 1.12 Server

Post by Mabuse » July 7th, 2015, 8:37 pm

New Version!
Embarrassing Bug Fix this Time.

Now i also know why i liked onrush+slow so much, since it was pretty perfect taking out all these foes :)

5.2.0:

BUG-FIX:
---------

- ONRUSH WEAPON SPECIAL now only presses combat for 2x rounds (as stated in description)
accidently it pressed combat for 3 rounds

so this is a major NERF for alle who got used to the current onrush slow strengh, it was meant to be a lot weaker.
in any case, it works as intended now. for the x3 Round option get RAGE.





Mystery wrote: CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.
All challenges only apply to 5.2.0 Version now
All other Versions are considered OP-Cheating :lol:
Mystery wrote: Balance-wise, if I may say something, I noticed the non-mage classes have Hit and Run in place of the Spellbook. Maybe my view is skewed from my solo-centric play -- it's certainly a required purchase by midgame -- but the Spellbook is so superior it's not even funny. Just for mobility alone, Magic Movement costs almost half of HaR (40g to 75g) and the casting cost is more efficient in every regard: it costs less mana than HaR costs stamina, from what I can tell you gain mana faster than stamina (from spending gold), and MM has higher-tier options (+10 and +15 Move) for even more efficient long-distance travel. Mage's mana items and Roguemage's mobility item also help (sorry Cleric, you lose).
well, the non-magic classes also deal a ton more damage due to their waepon-specials.
but you are right, hit+run is far less effective than magic-movement. and it also took quite a while that non magic classes get this abiulity at all, but i think it makes the game a lot more interesting.

also: non magic classes can spend their entire mana(stamina) into movement, while a mage prpbably want to spand some of the mana into fireballs etc.
Mystery wrote: Magical + Onrush slow costs 635g combined, less in practice if you start with a Magical weapon (whether innate or buying the magic swords). As I pointed out, Magical gives you a similar relative damage boost to Berserk (damage dealt to damage taken) and in my experience, Onrush is still fairly reliable at converting one-turn kills (OTK) even with "only" two rounds of engagement* compared to Berserk's ten. It comes with the slow built in too. Slow + Berserk costs 1000g combined, including Stunning Shield so Slow becomes an "addable" enchant, and perhaps more importantly an ability point! But, again, maybe when it's Turn 150 and you've maxed out on strikes and found a couple ability scrolls, the cost difference no longer matters so much. :P

* Onrush actually presses the engagement up to three rounds, I just double-checked to make sure. You should either fix Onrush to only press for two rounds as described, or fix the description. :) Rage presses for three rounds as it's supposed to do. I dunno if Berserk goes for exactly ten... if both combatants can survive that long.
Damn! this is a huge BUg that needed a fix ASAP. thx for reporting this. cannot believe it!
now i know why i love onrush slow so much.

but that is of course the answer:
its not only berserk+slow, its also magical-+rage+slow that only is avaialable with stunning shield use.

while you can still always put a CHARGE-special on onrush-slow for the real deal :)
(though clerics cannot do this)

Mystery wrote: Summon Demon... the summoned units are actually pretty strong, but I think it's too clunky. If your demon gets a kill, only your demon gets the MP + attack reset and not your hero unit. If you could do it like the attack spells, where the demon getting a kill could give the reset to your hero (hero alone or both units, either way), that'd make for strategic ways to chain resets for mobility or cover your ass for another turn from more powerful foes if you fail a kill and get stuck.
interesting suggestion
Mystery wrote: Because I feel like musing about my solo adventures, I believe the "optimal" unit for solo play is actually the Nightgaunt though there are a few alternatives* one could argue. I did some number-crunching -- base HP and MP, resistances, etc. -- and Nightgault is right near the top of the list of units with the highest innate gold value (the 1-terrain costs and 220% positive resists are huge, plus good starting MP). Skirmisher being built in saves you a valuable ability point, and innate Undead is nice although not a huge deal (Temple of Bones has an early Undead Ring).
feel free to upload some save game, so we can see :)

btw, nightgaunt is a hell of a good unit, especially at start
but the downfall is that you cannot customize its armor much.

also arcanister has great armor, but cannot customize much, so its debateable wether it is better or weaker than dwarven lord, but, its has a mega strong weapon
Mystery wrote: But blah blah blah right? :P I only recently returned to check up what's happening with Wesnoth and noticed you started updating this again. It's definitely my favorite way to pass the time in this game, so really thanks for getting back into this for 1.12. SXRPG is awesome.
thx for feedback and bug report :)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Mabuse
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Re: SXRPG Version 5.2.1 - now on 1.12 Server

Post by Mabuse » July 7th, 2015, 11:51 pm

5.2.1:

BALANCE-FIX:
-----------

- deleted ARCANISTER from SXRPG(max) era.
after all, it simply was too strong, and unbalanced the era, making some (good) units in there obsolete
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Mabuse
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Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SXRPG Version 5.2.0 - now on 1.12 Server

Post by Mabuse » July 7th, 2015, 11:54 pm

Mabuse wrote: also arcanister has great armor, but cannot customize much, so its debateable wether it is better or weaker than dwarven lord, but, its has a mega strong weapon
btw, here i was definately wrong, so i had to delete arcanister again from the era, in order to restore "balance"
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

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Mystery
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Re: SXRPG Version 5.2.1 - now on 1.12 Server

Post by Mystery » July 8th, 2015, 8:09 am

RIP Arcanister, we hardly knew ye.

I don't see a whole lot of differences in weapon specials. Hail of Arrows vs Focus but meh, Magical Circle + Slow is the way to go for range and all three ranged classes have those. :P But Mage and Roguemage have Blessing which gives +20% strikes, while Ranger only gets +15% from the similar Fast Reload. (Might wanna bugcheck that too, I think Blessing might only be giving 15% as well... but not enough starting gold to check that on-demand.) Melee-wise, Cleric gets Critical Hit instead of Charge which are both arguable (CH gives you damage advantage, but Charge makes OTKs easier), Roguemages don't get Berserk which is whatever because Berserk isn't addable like Rage. But yeah, good call on Magical + Rage + Slow... which is now the equivalent of "broken" Onrush slow and superior to the fixed one now. :P

Each class has additional perks that I don't think it's imperitive you change anything though, aside just the armor slots. Sure, Spellbook is way better than Hit-and-Run but Ranger also has +1 move on kill over Mage if you're set on playing a pure ranged class. Warrior and Roguewarrior have their own added advantages over Cleric and Roguemage, respectively, and then of course you can't really compare beyond that because the vast difference between pure melee vs. pure ranged vs. mixed range trumps all. I wouldn't say "Mage > Warrior because Spellbook > HaR" since they play so differently beyond what Spellbook/HaR do for them.

I still think Summon Demon is too clunky, not giving your hero unit the attack + movement reset if the demon gets a kill, but after thinking about it more I believe that I underrated it. While it's not much use as a solo (you're better off using Magic Movement and retreating), the extra Zone of Control enhances teamplay by allowing you to block for allies without endangering your hero. It's also worth noting that you can just use it as a "fireball" of sorts (send the demon in to berserk to its death, just dealing whatever damage it can) that has various advantages: the demon has much higher MP than the range of Fireball (5 range to 9+ MP) and you get all three elements wrapped into one spell, which saves you 40g and two ability points compared to buying all three Fireball variants. Too bad there's no "lesser demon" equivalent to the Rank 1-2 fireball spells, so you can't buy it as an early mana dump.

I don't have any other balance inquiries since everything else seems pretty well done (traits, abilities and all that jazz). Well, I do think the item options are a bit lame for the non-mage classes. The three mage classes all have different stuff. Cleric and Roguemage each have one magic-oriented item focused on different specialties, while Mage solidifies itself as the #1 overall magic-user having two mana-boosting items (but no defense item). All three non-mage classes just get lame ol' Cuirass + Defense Ring. Perhaps there's a way to mix it up a bit here? Maybe Warriors get a "Cuirass" for elemental attacks instead of a Defense Ring, maybe Roguewarriors get a mobility-boosting item like their Roguemage counterpart, plenty of ideas here.

I'm a powergamer to the max and I really feel like posting my methodology and ratings for each unit type, but I'll save that for another time because that's gonna take a hella long time to actually type up. And, well, actually crunch my numbers more thoroughly... perhaps an awesome unit slipped past my initial glances. :eng:

Mabuse
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Re: SXRPG Version 5.2.1 - now on 1.12 Server

Post by Mabuse » July 8th, 2015, 10:16 pm

Mystery wrote:Well, I do think the item options are a bit lame for the non-mage classes. The three mage classes all have different stuff. Cleric and Roguemage each have one magic-oriented item focused on different specialties, while Mage solidifies itself as the #1 overall magic-user having two mana-boosting items (but no defense item). All three non-mage classes just get lame ol' Cuirass + Defense Ring. Perhaps there's a way to mix it up a bit here? Maybe Warriors get a "Cuirass" for elemental attacks instead of a Defense Ring, maybe Roguewarriors get a mobility-boosting item like their Roguemage counterpart, plenty of ideas here.
well, thing is the things are made as thesy are because i couldnt think of something better at that moment ;)
SXRPG is under constant developement, so ideas and suggestions are very valueable. everything that enrichens the game is welcome.

also, there is always at least a little bit of need to "justify" things, a warrior with "elemental-armor" that boosts non-mundane resistances? no way. ;)

that is something for cleric!

also, it might OP warrior, especially the dwarves/ghost/nightmare - so its a significant boost.
atm im happy that units must waste some slots on getting armor doubled to 50% with steadfast/dauntless, for the non-mundane damages.

so warrior will stay as is.

but i think the ranger has use for a different special item.
an item that will allow him to penetrate armor a lot better, and thus reducing resistances or enemies he is figting against. (by a small percantage of about 5% -- which results effectively in a damage boost of 10% in average, the span of such a boost is raging from 5% upwards)

so ranger might drop cuirass, instead it get a "bodkin-arrow" or whatever that reduces mundane resistances of enemies be 5%. so it deals more damage.


and what to do with the roguemage .. so roguemage maybe better mobilty? thats something we can work with.

thx for suggestions :)

Mystery wrote: I'm a powergamer to the max and I really feel like posting my methodology and ratings for each unit type, but I'll save that for another time because that's gonna take a hella long time to actually type up. And, well, actually crunch my numbers more thoroughly... perhaps an awesome unit slipped past my initial glances. :eng:
hey i really like "Mage-of-Light" for example.

has not the greatest resists (but also not the worst), has a human-like movetype, so it needs most likely cave-explorer as trait to get good mobility

but it has free healing, which makes it a good team mate in group games, and also illumination which is free fearless + denying enemy ToD-Bonus - at least for chaotic creatures ;)

in low level era it may not be the strongest at start though so , you need to take care of him a bit
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

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Mystery
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Re: SXRPG Version 5.2.1 - now on 1.12 Server

Post by Mystery » July 12th, 2015, 2:41 pm

Definitely not a lot of time spent here that could've been spent actually playing the game... :whistle:

SURVIVAL XTREEEEEEEM ROLE-PLAYING GAME kinda-sorta-maybe Unit Rankings (as of SXRPG version 5.2.1, for Wesnoth 1.12)

Purpose: Determine the units most likely to successfully complete an SXRPG playthrough.
=-=-=-=
General methodology: Grorious reader Mabuse has done well in making each individual PC as customizable as possible. Many initial differences exist between possible starting units, such as base HP, base MP and so on. However, most stats and attributes can be purchased directly from the shop, allowing for many similar units to be built identically to one another with a little gold investment. For example, if there are two units with similar stats but one has +20 HP at the start of the game and the other has +2 MP, buying 20 HP on the latter and 2 MP on the former will make the two units identical.

Comparing the cost to purchase 20 HP versus 2 MP from the shop is how we can determine which unit is superior. Direct comparisons can be made by converting each unit's starting attributes to Gold Value, i.e. how much gold an attribute costs to purchase directly from the shop.
Specifics:
Example 1:
ImageIron Mauler
HP value: 405g (64 HP * 19g / 3 HP)
MP value: 0g (4 MP minimum)
Abilities: 0g (no abilities)
Weapons: 380g (30g for 14-3 Impact shop weapon, +550g for +11 damage, -200g for -1 strike)
Resists: 320g (360g for 120% positive resists, -40g to nullify negative resists)
Terrain: -75g (Cave, Hills, Forest terrain purchases required)
TOTAL GOLD VALUE: 1030g
Notes: Maxes out free resists (>100%). 40% Pierce, 50% Blade resists reduce customizability. Has very low Defenses overall. Poor mobility on Swamp, Sand, Fungus, Mountain and Shallow Water terrain, with only one slot remaining after required purchases (Cave, Hills, Forest), make the Explorer trait all but required. High gold value on its melee weapon makes this unit an ineffective Ranger/Mage.

Example 2:
ImageDrake Flameheart
HP value: 456g (72 HP * 19g / 3 HP)
MP value: 120g (5->16 MP saves 120g compared to the 4 MP minimum)
Abilities: 100g (Leadership becomes Fearless)
Weapons: 140g (30g for War Blade which is inferior to shop weapon, 110g for Fire Breath: 60g for 11-3 Fire shop weapon, -150g for -3 damage, +200g for 1 strike)
Resists: 100g (240g for 80% positive resists, -140g to nullify negative resists)
Terrain: -25g (Cave terrain purchase required)
TOTAL GOLD VALUE: 891g
Notes: 80% free resists. 50% Fire resist reduces customizability. Has low Defenses overall. Excellent mobility, missing but one "useful" terrain (Fungus) plus Deep Water and Unwalkable movement. Built-in Fearless encourages Lawful/Chaotic alignment for the ToD damage boost and saves 1 AP.

Now onto the complete rankings!
Full list:
BIG WINNERS
ImageImageImageImageImageImage
Dwarvish Dragonguard: Gold value 1774g.
Notes: 90% free resists. 60% Hills + 70% Mountain Defenses but overall low. Low starting MP but good terrain costs. High ranged weapon value.
Holy... This guy blows even my main man Nightgaunt out of the water by a whopping 400+ gold. What's the deal? It's all in the weapon. Over 1000 of that value is in his 40-1 starting weapon. Remember what I said about weapon values being the toughest to pin down, since a different set of assumptions/evaluations than what I used could drastically change the numbers? Yeah, keep that in mind... plus Pierce isn't the most exciting damage type. That said, I can't argue with the numbers. Falls just short of the 100% max free resists but has a perfect 20x3/10x3 spread to customize armor slots, plus great terrain costs. The start of the game will be a snap with a weapon this ridiculous.

Nightgaunt and Spectre: Gold values 1352g and 1329g, respectively.
Notes: 230% free resists, >30% Blade/Impact/Pierce/Cold. Deep Water and Unwalkable mobility. Skirmisher built into Nightgaunt.
I told you so. The Ghosts come in as arguably the most mobile units among the top tier -- only Inferno Drake shares their Deep Water + Unwalkable mobility and they have base +2 MP on it -- and gobs of free resists. A recipe for success! Hell, they're even Undead which is a nice plus. While enemies with Drain or Poison abilities aren't that common, you can't buy Undead and Poison is debilitating because it shuts off Regeneration/Healing for the turn. 50% Defenses all-around isn't bad either. Their one weakness is that their armor slots are basically pre-filled, which subjects you to eternal torture against Fire and Arcane attacks because too much of it is stuck in the other four.

The main difference is that Nightgaunt comes built in with Skirmisher, while Spectre has a viable starting Arcane weapon and a second saleable one. Nightgaunt is better unless you place absolutely no value on Skirmisher, which in my experience is indispensible. Being built in also allows you to play Lawful alignment, where Skirmisher isn't buyable in the shop even if you have AP to spare. Spectre is still great in its own right though, and it looks way cooler than everything else.

Inferno Drake: Gold value 1345g.
Notes: 110% free resists, >30% Fire. Overall low Defenses. Deep Water and Unwalkable mobility, good terrain costs. High ranged weapon value.
Sort of a go-between of the top two (three) units. It has most of Nightgaunt-Spectre's excellent mobility, namely the D-Water/Unwalkable movement and lack of terrain costs, but Dragonguard's heavy weapon value and even worse Defenses. It gets the full 100% free resistances but while it's less balanced than the dorf, it's not ridiculous to the level of N-S's 70% Cold and 13-of-14 armor slots pre-filled. Fire's a nice damage type too.

Elvish Sylph: Gold value 1138g.
Notes: 20% free resists. 60% Mountain + 70% Forest Defense. Deep Water mobility. High ranged weapon value.
A noticeable drop-off in gold value probably makes the Sylph somewhat inferior to the top three (four) units overall, but she has her perks. In particular, she has the best Defenses amongst the top tier, Nightgaunt-Spectre being the only other one above "terrible" even but Sylph goes beyond that with the occasional 60% in Castle (common for bosses) and Mountain (bordering other terrain transitions) plus 70% in Forest. Arcane is my personally preferred main damage type as well.

Dwarvish Lord: Gold value 1045g.
Notes: 130% free resists, >30% Blade. 60% Hills + 70% Mountain Defenses but overall low. Low starting MP but good terrain costs.
Yes, Dwarvish Lord is a bit lacking in total gold value. What's the appeal? Absolutely no weaknesses. (Well, besides Defense.) Its armor is perfect for going straight 40% across the board (though too high for Dauntless/Steadfast), having the necessary >100% total free resists but no 50+ innates like the Ghosts or Drake. It's not at all weapon-dependent like the ranged units and also Sylph lacks in free resists.

Dwarvish Arcanister would be a distant second place to the Dragonguard, and slightly ahead of Nightgaunt gold-wise but without the bonus Ability Point. :P

Surprises, Oddities, Duds
Mermen... yeah. Elves that aren't the Sylph? Surprising in a bad way. Mobility holds back most Humans and Undead, though some are actually decent. But let's check out the good surprises and some units with very unique attributes.
ImageImageImageImageImageImage
Ancient Wose: Gold value 1247g.
Notes: 110% free resists, >30% Impact/Pierce. Low Defenses. Horrible mobility. High melee weapon value. Built in Regeneration.
I'm quite impressed Ancient Wose cracked the top five, even counting Nightgaunt/Spectre as two units. Didn't see that coming. I mean, the mobility is horrendous so you all but have to choose Explorer as your trait but other than that it's actually quite good I guess. But I suppose gobs of HP and good resists work, with a very strong built-in attack. Innate Regen is something nobody can argue against.

Cavalier and Paladin: Gold values 1180g and 1157g, respectively.
Notes: 110% free resists for both, 40% Impact and better spread on Cav, Paladin 60% Arcane. Low Defenses, good MP but terrible terrain costs.
Cavalier serves as a sort of Dwarvish Lord alternate. Topping out at 40% Impact resistance and having the full 100% free resists, it's also perfect for going straight 40% across the board. The terrain costs are aggravating, almost forces Explorer so that's a slight weakness but there's huge value in that base 9 MP. Paladin loses 1 MP and has a less favorable resist spread, but like Spectre it has a nice starting Arcane weapon. It also has the small Heal ability, which probably isn't worth much but it bears mentioning.

Dwarvish Sentinel: Gold value 921g.
Notes: 110% free resists. 60% Mountain Defense but overall low. Low starting MP but good terrain costs. Innate Steadfast.
Gold value is crappy but if you're doing the Steadfast + Dauntless thing for 50% resists across the board and don't care about Skirmisher (or you'd use Nightgaunt), the Sentinel just might be your man.

Mermaid Diviner and Mage of Light: Gold values 885g and 838g, respectively.
Notes: 60% free resists, >30% Arcane for both but Diviner with better spread. Diviner has low Defenses out of water but high in water, plus Deep Water mobility. TWO ABILITIES!
Mabuse's pet unit is the Mage of Light... but the Mermaid might actually be better. Regardless, the main appeal of either unit is Illuminates. Illuminates is basically Fearless except 54594593 times better. It doubles your timeframe for ToD bonus into Dawn/Dusk, while eliminating the nightly ToD for enemy Chaotic units if you must fight at night (and the vast majority of enemies are Chaotic) and boosting allies. With Healing+X included too, they're the ultimate team players plus the only units with two abilities if you're strapped for AP and wanted both Fearless and Healing+X. Unfortunately, it forces you to playing a Lawful unit which cuts off access to Skirmisher and also pushes allies into at least playing at Neutral alignment, plus of course gold value is severely lacking. Just how valuable is Illuminates?

(Dis?)honorable mention to Assassin for being the worst unit according to gold value. :lol:

I may or may not have time today to try my hand again at beating Temple of Bones solo (Expert difficulty). And I'm not posting a replay unless I win (and I can figure out how to do it correctly). But I gotta put together my new computer desk.

Edit: holy moly I didn't think it'd take me eight hours to put the desk together :augh: Definitely no time until next weekend now, shame.

Mabuse
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Re: SXRPG Version 5.2.1 - now on 1.12 Server

Post by Mabuse » July 13th, 2015, 10:11 pm

Hey,

nice post and of course could be taken further.
attributes that cannot be enhanced beyond a certain point via the shop are terrain defense and resistances.
but also the abilities make a unit somewhat individual, starting weapons, distribution of resistances - in fact the base unit has quite some impact on the hero, and this is an important aspect.



but more factors:

for abilities:
-----------------
1st ability: 80+cost of ability ---> (because of trait-value for that +1 ability)
2nd ability: 150+cost of ability ---> (because of additional ability point cost)


Other Values:
weak movetype: additonal to the cost of terrain slots: -80 gold (this is basically most foot and cavalry units)
(80 gold = trait value)

weak terrain defenses: - 130 gold (e.g.: dwarves, woses, trolls, iron mauler, cavalry)
(80 gold = trait value + 50 gold cost of agility-ability)


weak movetype AND weak terrain defense: -280 gold
(80 gold = trait value + 150 gold cost of ability-point + 50 gold agility ability)

base resists < 100%: for each 10% -30 gold, making a 0% reists unit get a -300 gold penalty
(just an estimated guess on the extra panalty for better comparison)



(note that theses values are just recomendations and agree with your calculations, so the "weak movement penalty" simply gets added (or subtracted) to the unit regardless of the terrain slots you already took into account)



example: wose get +230 for free megaregen, but also get -280 for weak movetype and weak defenses, making it a -50 gold overall

iron mauler just gets a BIG -280 gold penalty for just being weak movement and terrible terrian defense



also one correction:
Terrain: Terrain cost reduction + Defense can be purchased in the shop. It costs 25g to reduce one terrain MP cost to 1, which also boosts Defense to 50% if beneath that. A player has 4 terrain cost slots to customize their PC, plus two mobility-focused traits upon character creation for Cave+Hill (Explorer) and Shallow+Deep Water (Swimmer) mobility/Defense. Reducing terrain costs is necessary to getting the most out of your MP.
trained terrain get upgraded to 40% def, only exception is FLAT which get upgraded to 50% if base is 40%.

number of terrains slots depend also bit on movetype, humans and cavalry get 5 slots for example
Last edited by Mabuse on July 14th, 2015, 12:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SXRPG Version 5.2.1 - now on 1.12 Server

Post by Mabuse » July 13th, 2015, 10:17 pm

So my overworked prices (in progress):
----------------------------------------
EDIT I: Fixed Darke Flameheart, as the 80% resists didnt get a penalty, its actual rank is now: 20)



Total Ranking:
-------------------


Top 10 Elite
-------------------

Dwarvish Dragonguard(1614g; 90% res, 60% Hill/70% Mtn DEF but rest low)[Sw/Wa 4 slots][Rwpn value][-160]

Nightgaunt(1532g; 230% res, >30% Bld/Imp/Prc/Cld, D-Wtr + Unwlk move)[Wa 4 slots][+1 ABL pt SKIRM, Undead][+180]

Spectre(1329g; 230% res, >30% Bld/Imp/Prc/Cld, D-Wtr/Unwlk move)[Wa 4 slots][Undead][]

Inferno Drake(1215g; 110% res, >30% Fir, D-Wtr/Unwlk move, low DEFs)[Fu 3 slots][Rwpn value][-130]

Ancient Wose(1197g; 110% res, >30% Imp/Prc, low DEFs)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wt 2 slots][+1 ABL pt REGEN][Mwpn value][-50]

Death Knight(1049g; 160% res, >30% Bld/Prc/Cld, D-Wtr move, 60% Mtn/Fung DEF)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][+1 ABL pt FEARLESS, Undead][+100]

Mage of Light(1043g; 60% res, >30% Arc, 60% Mtn DEF)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][+2 ABL pt ILLUM/HEAL+X][+205]

Drake Warden(1040g; 120% res, >30% Fir, low DEFs)[Sw/Fu/Wa 2 slots][-130]

Paladin(983g; 110% res, >30% Arc, low DEFs)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][+1 ABL pt? half HEAL+X][-180]

Grand Marshal(975g; 80% res, 60% Mtn DEF)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][+1 ABL pt FEARLESS][+40]



Top 11 - 20 Top Tier
---------------------

Dwarvish Sentinel(971g; 110% res, 60% Mtn DEF)[Sw/Wa 4 slots][+1 ABL pt STEADFAST][+50]

Silver Mage(929g; 120% res, >50% Fir/Cld, 60% Mtn DEF)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][-80]

Ghast(917g; 110% res, >30% Cld, 60% Mtn/Fung DEF)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][Undead][+1 ABL pt FEARLESS][+100]

Great Mage(917g; 50% res, 60% Mtn DEF)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][Rwpn value][-230]

Dwarvish Lord(915g; 130% res, >30% Bld, 60% Hill/70% Mtn DEF but rest low)[Sw/Wa 4 slots][-130]

Cavalier(900g; 110% res, >30% Imp, low DEFs)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][-280]

Elvish Sylph(898g; 20% res, D-Wtr move, 60% Mtn/70% For DEF)[Fu/Mt 3 slots][Rwpn value][-240]

Mermaid Diviner(890g; 60% res, >30% Arc, D-Wtr move, 60% Swamp/S-Wtr/70% Reef DEF but low out of water)[Sa/Fu/Mt 0 slot][+2 ABL pt ILLUM/HEAL+X][+5]

Hurricane Drake(882g; 80% res, >30% Fir, D-Wtr/Unwlk move)[Fu 3 slots][-60]

Drake Flameheart(881g; 80% res, >30% Fir, D-Wtr/Unwlk move, low DEFs)[Fu 3 slots][+1 ABL pt FEARLESS][-10]



Top 21 - 30 Second Tier
------------------------

Drake Enforcer(878g; 100% res, >30% Fir, low DEFs)[Sw/Fu/Wa 2 slots][-130]

Great Troll(852g; 40% res, 60% Mtn DEF)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wt 3 slots][+1 ABL pt REGEN][-230]

Draug(820g; 160% res, >30% Bld/Prc/Cld, D-Wtr move, 60% Mtn/Fung DEF)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][Undead][-80]

Chocobone(810g; 110% res, >30% Cld, low DEFs)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][Undead][-130]

Lich(805g; 100% res, >30% Cld, D-Wtr move, 60% Mtn/Fung DEF)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][-80]

Saurian Flanker(763g; 40% res, many 60% DEFs)[Mt/Wt 3 slots][+1 ABL pt SKIRM][+0]

Iron Mauler(750g; 120% res, >30% Bld/Prc, low DEFs)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][Mwpn value][-280]

Khalid(724g; 60% res, 60% Hill DEF but rest low)[Sw/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][-200]

Dread Bat(699g; 50% res, D-Wtr/Unwlk move, 60% all DEF)[Fu 4 slot][-150]

Grand Knight(674g; 70% res, low DEFs)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][-370]



Ranks 31 - 44
-------------

Banebow(672g; 160% res, >30% Bld/Prc/Cld, D-Wtr move, 60% Mtn/Fung DEF)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][Undead][-80]

Dwarvish Explorer(670g; 90% res, 60% Hill/70% Mtn DEF but rest low)[Sw/Wa 4 slots][-160]

Master at Arms(641g; 30% res, high DEFs)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][+1 ABL pt SKIRM][-110]

Royal Warrior(630g; 120% res, >30% Bld/Prc, low DEFs)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][-280]

Gryphon Master(618g; 10% res, D-Wtr/Unwlk move, 60% Mtn DEF)[Fu 3 slots][-270]

Orcish Sovereign(615g; 60% Mtn DEF)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wt 2 slots][+1 ABL pt FEARLESS][-200]

Elvish High Lord(549g; 60% Mtn/70% For DEF)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wt 2 slots][-300]

Elvish Shyde(517g; D-Wtr move, 60% Mtn/70% For DEF)[Fu/Mt 3 slots][+1 ABL pt HEAL+X][-145]

Rasikh(493g; 60% res, 60% Hill DEF but rest low)[Sw/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][-200]

Necromancer(448g; 20% res, 60% Mtn DEF)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][-320]

Assassin(428g; 20% res, high DEFs)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wa 1 slot][+1 ABL pt SKIRM][-140]

Elvish Sharpshooter(418g; 60% Mtn/70% For DEF)[Sw/Sa/Fu/Mt/Wt 2 slots][-300]

Mermaid Siren(205g; 20% res, D-Wtr move, 60% Swamp/S-Wtr/70% Reef DEF but low out of water)[Sa/Fu/Mt 0 slot][-520]

Merman Entangler(198g; 20% res, D-Wtr move, 60% Swamp/S-Wtr/70% Reef DEF but low DEF out of water)[Sa/Fu/Mt 0 slot][-520]
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

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Mystery
Posts: 55
Joined: June 17th, 2009, 3:16 pm

Re: SXRPG Version 5.2.1 - now on 1.12 Server

Post by Mystery » July 19th, 2015, 9:42 am

Mabuse wrote:well, yeah, there are quite some texts that need a little bit of an overhaul, also like the "basic-how-to-play" section at start. in any case by the time it was wtritten it was considered as impossible to win ToB with one unit :)
Mabuse wrote:in any case, im working on a new map, and also some Boss-battles will become harder on all maps.
enemies with death-aura now deal damage when you ENTER the radius of the unit, luckily resistances apply ;)
(so all proves wether a map is doable by 1 unit only will only be registered for the upcoming 5.0.0 version)
Image
The mighty Nightgaunt, Mystery, has Expertly slain the demons of the Temple of Bones and brought peace and order to the world once again... for now! Now let's see if this replay works...

I had to spend 20 turns at the end farming for a more suitable weapon to kill the final boss, since my ranged Arcane weapon couldn't punch through his resistance fast enough and using my Impact melee weapon would kill me with the combination of Rage + boss attacking my Arcane resist (instead of my much higher Impact resist at range). Funny thing is I held my Net all game even though I literally never used it again once I got my Faerie Fire fully enchanted. Realizing that, I finally sold it right before taking on the final boss for a little extra HP... and then I needed a ranged Bld/Imp/Prc weapon anyway to win. :doh: It cost me 300g to go back and buy Throwing Knives.

I do still believe Blessing isn't working quite right. It's supposed to be +20% strikes, but my Faerie Fire weapon only got +1 strike when I upgraded to 10 strikes (11 after enchant). 10*1.2 = 12 even, so I should've gotten +2 strikes... I didn't get +2 strikes until I got 11 strikes base (13 total). That is more than 15%, though, so it doesn't seem to be a mixup or bad copypaste of the Ranger's similar ability.

Edito Bandito: Blessing also don't give +3 strikes at 15 base (get 17 total), wasn't until 16-17 that I got the third strike added on. Still more than 15% unless Wesnoth rounds weird :hmm:, but definitely not 20% either way. Replay worked for me except most of the pre-placed item sprites didn't show up; their floating text on pickup and effects worked just fine though.
Attachments
TempleWINNER.gz
Solo Temple of Bones, hardest difficulty (Expert, Death Mode).
(585.32 KiB) Downloaded 164 times
Last edited by Mystery on July 19th, 2015, 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
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Re: SXRPG Version 5.2.1 - now on 1.12 Server

Post by Mabuse » July 19th, 2015, 10:24 am

Cool. I will watch, and then i guess we have another Entry in Hall of Fame. :)

Also: I think i will give ToB a go with Thunderer, solo
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SXRPG Version 5.2.1 - now on 1.12 Server

Post by Mabuse » July 31st, 2015, 6:40 pm

Btw, while i think that TOB is perfectly playable (i died a few times though :D)

ban beside some small balance tweaks, and some minor new stuff the next version may come along with
the newest Project goes in another direction:


Randomized Fun Maps
using a Random Map Generator, and making pretty much everything random.
other maps may also profit from this.


i also played a lot Ageless recently, and have to say that there are quite a bunch of nice units, war_of_chaos era also many units, and a few can make it into the game.

so randomized maps, with varied themes, and randomized factions/bosses/items - are on the next plan, for some nice exploring stuff and fun :)


ofc, im pretty much at the beginning here, so i have to see which ideas can be realized and which ideas cant.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Zoom
Posts: 4
Joined: August 10th, 2013, 6:00 pm

Re: SXRPG Version 5.2.1 - now on 1.12 Server

Post by Zoom » October 5th, 2015, 3:01 pm

Hi :)

Just wanted to submit, two replays(Wizard of War2 and Evil Dead) I did playing on my lonesome. @ Mabuse .. Wizard of War2 was very entertaining, it took over more than 2 weeks of multiple tries before it was eventually beat. In both replays, I used a ghost and bat, for the mobility and base armor(ghost vs physical, bat vs arcane). Really enjoyed the Cleric Class, because of it's relationship to potions. Uhm, I had alot to say about these two games, but time has jaded my short term mind xD

My only request, is that a shortcut key be added to the menu, to access potions. I used the cauldron extensively, for movement, and I believe that menu displays the oldest potions first. Something worth mentioning, in a sepearte single character game (wizard of war2), I managed to to get my boss drop chance to 40% which was really great and rare, unfortunately I eneded up dying in that specific game.
Attachments
2015-09-29-200938_1366x768_scrot.png
40%-drop-chance
evil-dead-win.gz
evil-dead-win-bat-ghost
(541.68 KiB) Downloaded 131 times
wizard-war-win.gz
wizard-war-win-bat-ghost
(661.3 KiB) Downloaded 140 times

roidanton
Posts: 90
Joined: September 7th, 2012, 10:41 pm

Re: SXRPG Version 5.2.1 - now on 1.12 Server

Post by roidanton » October 11th, 2015, 8:03 pm

It's been a long time since I last played, but when I saw that you made a new version with a new map, I decided to try it out. My first impression is really good, love the new changes :D

However, about the new map - I think you need to make it more obvious that the boss in the middle is not the final one. I thought he was because you can only get there by killing those big spiders - which you usually don't kill on other maps until late end-game. So I was very surprised when killing the left boss triggered a victory condition!

Anyways, I attached the replay - it's only Experienced difficulty because I wanted to get a feel for the map first. I'll eventually re-run it on Expert when I have time.
Attachments
SXRPG_IsleOfDread_replay.gz
Isle of Dread Experienced
(483.84 KiB) Downloaded 141 times

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