ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

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alpha1
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

Post by alpha1 » April 8th, 2014, 8:29 pm

I think I will return from the nether realm to join the group of "naysayers" :P . What's the advantage of trimming the map list? It's not like there is an "optimal" number of maps, exceeding which would be detrimental to gaming experience.

Don't turn this into a "2nd Isar" pls, when a superior map was substituted with an inferior one against the will of the players. Add new maps to the existing ones, if they are good, they will find their way, if not, the trimming will not matter.

my 2c.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

Post by Dunno » April 8th, 2014, 9:21 pm

iceiceice wrote: The point is that we only want very polished content in mainline, because mainline content has the official Wesnoth brand on it, implying our approval. If some maps are outdated and not balanced or not fun, or if we simply don't like them anymore, then it makes sense to clean them out. Especially if no one is interested in improving or maintaining them. It's basically up to the MP devs I suppose.
That's why I'm still insisting on removing 4p Hamlets. :whistle:
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

Post by alpha1 » April 8th, 2014, 9:29 pm

Hamlets is good for silly, claustrophobic fights :eng:
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

Post by tekelili » April 8th, 2014, 9:46 pm

iceiceice wrote: The point is that we only want very polished content in mainline, because mainline content has the official Wesnoth brand on it, implying our approval. If some maps are outdated and not balanced or not fun, or if we simply don't like them anymore, then it makes sense to clean them out. Especially if no one is interested in improving or maintaining them. It's basically up to the MP devs I suppose.
I can undertand this point of view, and from that perspective I cant say anything against remove some maps. But let´s be realistic: they are not so bad, and far better than lot of UMC maps swarming in add on seever. It would only benefict players that they were marked in some way as almost Wesnoth official stuff in add on server, imho.

off topic: btw, that point of view only reinforces my opinion that 6p team survival should be insta-removed :whistle:
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

Post by Velensk » April 8th, 2014, 10:20 pm

I honestly don't have anything against removing 6p team survival. Though again, I'd like to replace rather than remove. However, I don't plan to worry about that until after this is over.

Is anybody other than Horus2 actually making maps for this contest?
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

Post by Sapient » April 9th, 2014, 7:18 am

Nodding my head at the Hamlets comments-- I for one, never liked it.

I probably won't be submitting a map, sorry. Making a new and interesting map that meets all the stated requirements is a pretty difficult task. In the past I have been able to get close but never quite all the way.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

Post by Mint » April 9th, 2014, 7:58 am

An interesting point about hamlets: 2p Hamlets is physically a larger map than 4p Hamlets. Should it be increased in size to match 2p?
I still completely disagree with removing it and Lagoon as the pool is already quite small.

Also I'd really hate to see 6p Team Survival removed as it is one of only 2 survivals packaged with Wesnoth.

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

Post by tekelili » April 9th, 2014, 9:36 am

Mint wrote:Also I'd really hate to see 6p Team Survival removed as it is one of only 2 survivals packaged with Wesnoth.
Well, my idea was that there is lot of good of candidates to take its place, so survival map pool wouldnt be reduced. If a proposals helps: I vote for TSW Survival, may be not perfect but still quite good and interesting. 3p survival by Nosmos has a weird final wave, but overall is the most balaced survival I have played, with very well tuned enemy waves and interesting village-holding challenge, so also other option.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

Post by max_torch » April 9th, 2014, 10:15 am

For the people who don't like hamlets; what factors makes hamlets a bad map? If it is only the size then I guess Den of Onis and sablestone delta is bad as well? Wouldn't it be easier for new players to get used to MP by starting out with small claustrophobic maps like these and then gradually move on to the larger like basilisk, weldyn, etc.. I just want to get your perspective.

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

Post by Velensk » April 9th, 2014, 11:12 am

Assuming we're talking specifically about 4p Hamlets I think mostly the issue is it being boring and being potentially very stalematish for a 2vs2 map.

1vs1 Hamlets still suffers from that somewhat but received several edits to fix the issue while the 2vs2 version remained the same (this is the reason why the 1vs1 is bigger). Even before the edits though, 2vs2 had the issue of putting more units at the front at the start, and essentially playing a lot like a very cramped 1vs1 despite being a 2vs2 (also, definitely the map where the 'upkeepless army' strat is most viable). I've never really had a problem with it as I think the 2vs2 makes it different enough from the 1vs1 to be a unique experience but I can definitely see why people would have issues with it. If enough people want to see it gone relative to the number who'd like to keep the ones that I think need revamping I might switch to it. I think it'd be one of the easiest ones to fix through revisions though unlike Lagoon where I'm not sure what could be done without a complete concept change.

Of course, nothing is going to get removed/replace if nobody makes anything to replace it with.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

Post by iceiceice » April 10th, 2014, 1:24 am

A bit off topic:

I looked on add-on server, but I guess that there is no such "Legacy Maps" add-on to collect former mainline maps. So when I suggested this before it was actually a bit empty.

Mostly out of curiosity I went to the git repo and looked in data/multiplayer/maps, and at each commit that removed a map. It looks like there have only been 6 maps removed ever. I put all of them except Wesbowl in an add-on "Former Mainline Maps" (now on 1.10 add-on server). I tried to play Wesbowl but it appears that the scripted events are totally broken, so resurrecting that is for someone else. The 5 that I kept are just simple maps with no scripted events, so I guess that they will always more or less work most likely.

All of these maps were removed in 2008 or 2009:

2p - Fast to Madness
2p - Thalin's Stronghold
4p - Eryn Chethu
4p - Mines of Mallorod
6p - Ahmosad Caldera

My feeling is that if any map were ever committed to the repo then someone once thought it was worth somebody's time. (I don't know if they were actually part of any release, just that they were in the repo at some point.) But they all seem very small, most even smaller than Isar.

There might be even older maps than this that predate the repo or something, but I have no way to find those.

4p - Hamlets frankly seems like a much better map than any of these, like Tek was saying, so it seems like a bit of a shame for it to join their company. On the other hand, if the issue is that it is too small and cramped to be fun then it would not be unprecedented to remove it.

(If you authored one of these maps and you don't want it to be available on the server at all, you can PM me and I will remove it.)

Edit: I will say this: I'm not sure if I think that it makes sense to remove 4p - Hamlets *before* removing Isar's Cross. Even if 4p - Hamlets technically has smaller dimensions it has much more space. I also don't think that Isar's Cross should be removed, for what it is worth.

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

Post by Sapient » April 10th, 2014, 2:50 am

The thing that bugs me about 4p Hamlets isn't its size. The map plays like a 1v1 more than a 2v2. The ally interaction isn't nearly as interesting as 4p Morituri, for example. The layout isn't that interesting either: it's tactically very bland. Just my opinion, of course, and I'm sure there will be those who disagree.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

Post by Velensk » April 10th, 2014, 11:51 am

iceiceice wrote:A bit off topic:

I looked on add-on server, but I guess that there is no such "Legacy Maps" add-on to collect former mainline maps. So when I suggested this before it was actually a bit empty.

Mostly out of curiosity I went to the git repo and looked in data/multiplayer/maps, and at each commit that removed a map. It looks like there have only been 6 maps removed ever. I put all of them except Wesbowl in an add-on "Former Mainline Maps" (now on 1.10 add-on server). I tried to play Wesbowl but it appears that the scripted events are totally broken, so resurrecting that is for someone else. The 5 that I kept are just simple maps with no scripted events, so I guess that they will always more or less work most likely.

All of these maps were removed in 2008 or 2009:

2p - Fast to Madness
2p - Thalin's Stronghold
4p - Eryn Chethu
4p - Mines of Mallorod
6p - Ahmosad Caldera

My feeling is that if any map were ever committed to the repo then someone once thought it was worth somebody's time. (I don't know if they were actually part of any release, just that they were in the repo at some point.) But they all seem very small, most even smaller than Isar.

There might be even older maps than this that predate the repo or something, but I have no way to find those.

4p - Hamlets frankly seems like a much better map than any of these, like Tek was saying, so it seems like a bit of a shame for it to join their company. On the other hand, if the issue is that it is too small and cramped to be fun then it would not be unprecedented to remove it.

(If you authored one of these maps and you don't want it to be available on the server at all, you can PM me and I will remove it.)

Edit: I will say this: I'm not sure if I think that it makes sense to remove 4p - Hamlets *before* removing Isar's Cross. Even if 4p - Hamlets technically has smaller dimensions it has much more space. I also don't think that Isar's Cross should be removed, for what it is worth.
That is interesting but it's also missing at least one, Hornshark Island.

EDIT: I realized that I need to explain. Sometimes when a map is effectively 'removed' from mainline it is replaced by another map with either the same name or a similar concept. The current Hornshark Island bears no resemblance at all to the one the old players are familiar with other than the tileset. The Freelands used to be called charge and look very different. There have been a few other maps which have been altered to the point where you could consider the old versions of them removed.

To be honest, I don't remember seeing any of those except Ammosad Caldera and Fast to Madness and I've been playing a long time. I don't even remember seeing Fast to Madness as a mainline map but rather in an add-on.
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

Post by Dunno » April 10th, 2014, 12:16 pm

My mighty script just finished analysing 4-player games stored in replays.wesnoth.org/1.10/. Here are the results:

Code: Select all

The_Cage_mod_(rough) 1
Mirkwood 1
4p-The_Pit_of_Doom 1
The_Old_Haven 1
4p--The_Pit_of_Doom 1
Settlers_2vs2 1
King_of_the_Hill_Alternate 1
Battle_of_the_Barrier_4p 1
Hamlets_TT 1
Cave 1
4p-Boss_Rush 1
4p_ls_rumble4 1
mappa_torneo_prova2 1
The_New_Haven 1
Westron 1
The_Void 1
The_Siege 1
A_New_Land_Imprisoned_(hard) 1
Central_Fortress 1
A_New_Land_Mod 1

----- 2+ games -----

path_of_dragons 2
Manic_Mining 2
Fortress_Defense_(Survival) 2
Island_Battle 2
Big_Hexagon_Proximity 2
4p_t_2 2
Isar's_Caves_v2 2
4p_Joust_(2v2) 2
Proximity_Perforated_Hexagon 2
4p_Jollyroger's_dungeon_outlive_version_lms 2
Four_Seasons_(4p) 2
Archipelago 2
4p_estrangulador 2
Deserted_Realm 3
A_New_Land_Imprisoned_(Start_in_outer_castle) 3
4p_Jollyroger's_dungeon_alls_vs_alls_version_lms 3
_Sacred_Oasis 3
Loris_River_TT 3
DW_No_Creeps 3
Proximity_Hexagonal_Rings 3
Amaranthine 3
Fortress_Assault_(1_vs_3) 3
Blue_Water_Province_TT 3
The_Abyss 3
AuctionX_2v2 4
Isars_Cross_+#textdomain_wesnoth-drw 4
Northern_Island 4
Isars_Dream 4
Ruins_of_Terra-Dwelve_TT 4
Soradoc 4
Isar's_Cross_Classic 4
Xanthe_Chaos_TT 4
Prison_Break_Hardcore_(Survival) 4
survival1-4p 4
Siege_(Team_Survival) 5
GPA_4p_Heartland 5
Caedd_Ridge_(2v2) 6
4p_fast_game 6
Island 6
Great_Lakes_(PeeP's_Map_Pack) 7
Upriver_(1v3) 7
Lich_Lord 7
Paths_of_Daggers_TT 7
Isar_HD 8
Galdrad_Survival_4p 8
Caedd_Ridge_(Alternate)_(2v2) 8
#Strategic_War_4p_Milites_3.PL 9
Hamlets_+#textdomain_wesnoth-drw 9

----- 10+ games -----

Inner_Fortress 10
Interlocking_Caverns 11
4p_Jollyroger's_dungeon_2_vs_2_version_lms 11
Xylon's_valley 12
Iron_Throne 12
Geothermal 12
Zombie_Survival 12
Lava_Island 13
0,0,250See_your_destiny_4p_Militess_PL 13
Spiral_Court_(2v2) 13
Lone_Caldera_(2v2) 13
Reinforcement 13
Boggy_Marshes_(PeeP's_Map_Pack) 14
Winter_in_Wesnoth 14
East_West_Pass 15
Jelgeyn_Expedition 15
Morituri_TT 15
Belgar_Peak 16
@EB-4pFFA2 16
Isar's_Caves 17
4p-Wasteland(Lvl_6) 17
Eliminatorie_torneo_non_ufficiale 17
Long_March_(2v2) 17
Jigsaw_Survival 17
Malahk_River 17
4p_Island 18
0,0,250Impact_4p_Milites_PL 18
Jollyroger's_dungeon 18
4p_Siege_at_sunset_lms 18
Back_To_Back_(2v2) 18
Hidden_Haven 19
Articificial_Island 19
NewAuctionX 19
Proximity 20
@Strategic_War_4p_Milites.PL 20
Thangard_Mines 20
AuctionX(new) 21
The_Peak_(PeeP's_Map_Pack) 21
#Strategic_War_4p_Milites_2.PL 21
Lake_Delta_(2v2) 21
DW_Creepfest 22
Triple_Threat_(1v3) 22
Zarakxyss_Temple 22
Breaking_Ground 23
4p_Jollyroger's_dungeon_outlive_version 24
Summer_in_Wesnoth 26
@EB-4pFFA 26
The_Grey_Isle 26
GPA_4p_LincolnStrait 27
GPA_4p_MergingFrontier 27
Faerie_Theme 27
An_Island 27
4p_Jollyroger's_dungeon_2_vs_2_version 28
Shrouded_Woods 29
Kill_the_Virgins!_(version_for_Kids) 29
Tasman_Island 29
Blood_on_the_New_Land 30
Autumn_in_Wesnoth 31
Spring_in_Wesnoth 32
Inland_Swamps 33
GambCiv_Snowflakes 35
Soradoc_Cross 35
4p-Dark_Home(Lvl_2) 35
4p-Into_the_Spider's_Web(Lvl_4) 42
4p-Sunken_Ground(Lvl_2) 43
GambCiv_Pyramid_Island 43
Wesmere_Border_Assault 48
4p_Jollyroger's_dungeon_alls_vs_alls_version 49
4p-Fading_Glory(Lvl_2) 50
(Tiny)_No_Passaran_(4p) 53
4p-Edge_of_the_Earth(Lvl_7) 57
Sarnn_River 61
Blasphemy_Downgraded_Lich_(Survival) 68
Sacred_Oasis 68
Caves_of_Ogrimar 73
4p-Of_Rock_and_Water(Lvl_2) 77
4p_Siege_at_sunset 82
4p-Desert_Fortress(Lvl_2) 89
4p_WD_Close_Encounters_v1.3.1 90
4p-Coral_Kingdom(Lvl_1) 91
4p-Salvaged_Woods(Lvl_2) 93
4p-Mountain_Passes(Lvl_3) 96
4p-Two_Worlds(Lvl_1) 98
4p-Sister_Kingdoms(Lvl_2) 99

-----100+ games -----

4p-Hidden_Vale(Lvl_2) 101
4p-Mosaic(Lvl_2) 110
Monument_of_Peace 115
Twisted_Outpost 117
Mega_War_(2v2) 119
Isars_Cross_TT 124
4p-The_Barrows(Lvl_3) 134
AuctionX_Survival 136
4p-Northern_Thaw(Lvl_2) 150
4p-River_Faceoff(Lvl_1) 169
The_Holy_Fires 169
4p-Fae_Crossing(Lvl_1) 178
4p-Invading_Sands(Lvl_1) 179
4p-An_Idyllic_Age(Lvl_1) 209
4p-The_Road_North(Lvl_1) 210
Chaos_Zombies 213
4p-On_Hostile_Ground(Lvl_1) 268
Double_Blasphemy_(Survival) 271
Prison_Break_(Survival) 366
Prison_Break_(Survival)_with_Artifacts 413
Morituri,_FFA_mod 425
Traitor's_Island_2v2 426
Northerners_RPG 470
Aybabtu_Valley 580
The_Great_Wall 792

----- 1000+ games -----

Ruins_of_Terra-Dwelve 1123
Blue_Water_Province 1441
Kill_the_Virgins!_(Survival) 1657
Xanthe_Chaos 1739
Underworld 2314
Siege_Castles 2364
Lagoon 2487
The_Last_Stand 2528
Hamlets 2763
Paths_of_Daggers 3062
King_of_the_Hill 3110
Loris_River 3286
Isar's_Blasphemy_(Survival)_with_Artifacts 4252
Castle_Hopping_Isle 4364
Morituri 4506
Clash 6037
Isar's_Blasphemy_(Survival) 8003
A_New_Land 8256

----- 10,000+ games -----


----- 100,000+ games -----

Isars_Cross 101737
Apparently I stand corrected about Hamlets. Also, this should be a warning to everyone thinking that Isar's Cross is not that popular...
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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 4player Map Contest and Overhaul!

Post by Velensk » April 10th, 2014, 12:58 pm

That's interesting. It does show that apparently Lagoon is more popular than I'd observed (none of the other numbers really surprise me all that much).
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

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