World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

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Xudo
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Re: World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

Post by Xudo » December 13th, 2012, 12:56 pm

I propose to separate "off-hand weapons" to special class of items. Off-hand weapons might require more attribute points, than main-hand ones. This might prevent dual-wielding mages somehow.

I'd like to see some examples of dual-wielding + skills (which add attacks) to understand your concept.

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Dugi
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Re: World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

Post by Dugi » December 13th, 2012, 3:26 pm

The easiest way to do the dual wielding would be to make it increase the number of attacks per turn in total, and make the characters have the same attacks (but with different weapon modifiers) for the left-hand attack. After using the maximum number of attacks for one hand, the player would be disallowed to attack with that hand (inability to use an attack offensively is a possible attribute of all attacks by default). This would mean also retaliating more damage, so it would not be much overpowered.

Another way, the cooler way, would be to make the player attack twice during each attack, once with one weapon, once with the other weapon, but it would be much harder to code and would allow much more stacking.

I don't like the idea of special weapons for the left arm, it looks like a workaround for anybody and it's kinda illogical.

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Re: World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

Post by Heindal » December 13th, 2012, 9:36 pm

Annother idea of easily realising "dual wielding" is to create weapons that simply block the shield slot. This could also be used for other twohanded weapons.
I created some left handed weapons as well in my campaigns. Its really easy to code, as you just need to create a weapon that uses the shield slot to be equipped - but these are plain additional attacks.

But realizing real dual wielding (player attack twice during each attack as dugi suggested) is the better way.

Sorry, I'm very busy at the moment :oops: but I keep reading all posts in this thread.
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Dugi
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Re: World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

Post by Dugi » December 13th, 2012, 9:53 pm

I haven't coded it yet, but I think that there will be a button to equip things into the off-hand. Shields would be put there automatically, also weapons when the off-hand slot is empty and the character can dual-wield, but if a player wants to switch a shield for a weapon or to switch the off-hand weapon, it might be useful. It might be also useful for managing two rings, one button to switch the first ring, one to switch the other ring. I really hated switching rings in Morrowind where if you equipped a ring and had two of them before, the one you equipped earlier was replaced, and if you wanted to replace the newer one, you had to unequip it manually and it did not support hot keys. Managing dual-wielding in Skyrim was even worse.

When I can make my own GUIs with any number of buttons and widgets I want, managing many things can get quite easy (well, easy to design, easy to use, but making a WML code that creates a message tag with options and then reads it can be written much faster).

The plan about the inventory manipulation GUI is that there would be a window with two lists of items next to each other, the items in inventory and the items equipped, you would have there a button to equip the item selected on the inventory list and one to equip it into off hand (that would be disabled if it cannot be done) and a button to unequip the selected item on the list of equipped items. Next to the inventory list and next to the list of equipped items (not between them, one from one side, one from another side), there would be lists of effects the selected item has. Clicking on an effect would write its description bellow. On the bottom, there would be two buttons, one would be to undo all changes and the other one would save the changes and exit the window.

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Xudo
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Re: World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

Post by Xudo » December 14th, 2012, 8:26 am

Attacking twice during each attack might be cool in other games, but in Wesnoth it will look awkward.
How will you tell player the fact, that there will be attacks from off-hand weapon? How are you going to display expected damage (after resistances)? Will you run unit attack animation on each off-hand hit?

I propose to simplify off-hand weapons to something, which will affect melee damage (and attributes) somehow. It should not be separate entity.

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Re: World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

Post by Dugi » December 14th, 2012, 8:40 am

How will you tell player the fact, that there will be attacks from off-hand weapon?
There will be a character properties window that would tell all these things if somebody looks at it.
How are you going to display expected damage (after resistances)?
There is no way to make the expected damages' window show it.
Will you run unit attack animation on each off-hand hit?
This can be done, the unit will simply attack the target with the other weapon after attacking with the main weapon, to deal additional damage.
I propose to simplify off-hand weapons to something, which will affect melee damage (and attributes) somehow. It should not be separate entity.
What a great proposition... This suggestion is so vague that I cannot say if it is a good idea or a bad idea.

There is an easy way to do the dual wielding, so that simply the (positive) properties of the two weapons would merge, for axes (that normally do a lot of damage) resulting in a huge damage, with daggers (that normally deal a lot of attacks) resulting in a lot of attacks. I am open to suggestions of this kind, mostly because of the difficulty to code the thing I described before.

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Xudo
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Re: World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

Post by Xudo » December 14th, 2012, 4:35 pm

Dugi wrote:There is an easy way to do the dual wielding, so that simply the (positive) properties of the two weapons would merge, for axes (that normally do a lot of damage) resulting in a huge damage, with daggers (that normally deal a lot of attacks) resulting in a lot of attacks. I am open to suggestions of this kind, mostly because of the difficulty to code the thing I described before.
This is exactly what I meant. Off-hand items - weapons just increase damage.

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Re: World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

Post by alex23 » December 14th, 2012, 10:18 pm

resulting in a lot of attacks
thats the only thing i disagree with as having many attacks disturbs the game, the balance and the speed (why exactly was earlier mentioned, many reasons).

Another ossibility would be that dualwielding gives you one extra attack f.e. where you can attack only with the secondhand weapon (maybe two additional attacks, depending on how many you will have from the beginning). ALthough i dont know haw you could code that

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Re: World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

Post by Heindal » December 15th, 2012, 10:22 am

I agree with xudo, that offhand items could give a bonus:

Off-Hand Items could influence

- the damage and strikes
- the defence, resistance or avoid stats (also shields)
- give special abilities such as counter, riposte, hitandrun, steadfast
- maybe even shift the type of damage (a magic charm or something)
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Re: World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

Post by Dugi » December 15th, 2012, 12:14 pm

So we have three ways to do the dualwielding.
First one is to make the character simply hi twice. Heindal seemed to agree with this. It is the most natural but it is very hard to code and the damage calculation would totally screw its job.
Second one is to make the offhand attack behave like another attack that turn. Alex seemed to agree with this. It is also relatively easy to code. But the resulting number of attacks available would make i confusing and with the retaliation it would not be a huge advantage.
The third one is that all the modifiers of both weapon would merge. This is the easiest to code an would be quite balanced and varying. Both Xudo and Heindal seem to agree with this. The damage type if the player is dualwielding a mace and an axe is an unresolved problem.

I think I prefer the third possibility. Shall we choose thethird one, then?

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Xudo
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Re: World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

Post by Xudo » December 15th, 2012, 12:41 pm

Dugi wrote:Shall we choose thethird one, then?
You already know my opinion about it. Yes, I agree.

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Re: World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

Post by Xudo » December 15th, 2012, 2:36 pm

Sorry for dualposting.

I have an idea about how armor should be classified.

There is 3 types of chest armor:
  • light(noarmor)
  • medium
  • heavy
Each type of armor have "resistance budget" - it is an abstract field, which defines total amount of resistance bonus of this type armor.
Light armor resistance budget is 30(%). It allows folowing combinations: {+5 pierce, + 10 impact, + 15 blade} or {+10 pierce, +10 impact, +10 blade}
Medium armor resistance budget is 60 and heavy armor resistance budget is 90.

In addition, armor decreases movement speed of character. Medium armor decreases it by 1, heavy - by 2. Light armor have no penalty.

As long as we are going to create extensive character development system, armor with level X+1 should be better than armor with level X. This is there absorbition might be used.
Armor of level 1 should have 0-2 absorbition points, armor of level 20 should have 10-15 absorbition points.

To display absorbitions, we can add dummy ability to unit.

This classification is not compatible with skills, which increase resistances. Thats why I propose to alter them(skills) so that they will increase absorbitions (for example by 1/4 of attribute of something like this) instead of resistances. Other way - skills might directly affet resistances, but for fixed amount (+5 or + 10% to specific one).

Weak units might be underpowered agains wearers of high-level armor with high absorbitions. But, hey, aren't weak units are supposed to be underpowered?

The issue "absorbitions are more powerful against weapons with high number of attacks" is not an issue, it is feature of absorbitions in their nature. More than that, we are going to use absorbitions to differ (high-level armor from low-level armor), not (heavy armor from light armor). Both light and heavy armor of lvl 1 will have 0-2 absorbition points.

Pros:
  • No need to implement sophisticated formulas to calculate resistance from defense skill.
  • It is possible to balanse absorbitions and +damage from armor and weapons of specific level. Weapons of level X-1 will be less effective against armor of level X.
  • It is possible to increase level cap later, without worrying about 99% of resistances (which might happen)
Cons:
  • AI will never know, that characters have high absorbitions
  • It require additional coding

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Re: World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

Post by alex23 » December 15th, 2012, 4:46 pm

I agree with the third possibility as well, about armor, why do we need so stricht code with numbers? I would suggest the most logical: Define armor weight, define "max armor weight" that depends on class and attributes (endurance i think) and then check - if armor weight <half of max armor weight, no penalty if its between 50% and 80% -1 movement, if its over 80% of the max armore weight -2 movement points. the max armor weight is as the name says the maximum weight a character can wear.
Robes give only magical resistance,
armors physical (and only rarely magical res, not as in LotI)

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Dugi
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Re: World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

Post by Dugi » December 15th, 2012, 4:58 pm

@Xudo
Please, it is absorption, not absorbition.
I have already written a formula for resistances, it behaved very well. It was some kind of asymptotical exponential function, see the lua source code for more details.

But this version of the absorption idea is quite good. After some thinking,I realised that thid property does not even need any evets tied to it, and therefore would be estimated correcty by the game. Therefore the disadvantages are invalid. Surpridingly.

Your conception however requires the characters to wear high level armours, that might not be the best thing. I suggest combining it, there would still be a defence number, much higher for heavy armours, but higher level armours would also add absorption.

Sorry for typos, I am not using a computer right now.

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Xudo
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Re: World of Wesnoth (MMORPG add-on project)

Post by Xudo » December 15th, 2012, 6:29 pm

I thought about reducing movement penalty if character have enough strength...
I think that it would be much easier to introduce boots with high strength requirement, which have improved positive movement bonus.
If characters raises strength high (45), then he can equip heavy armor (which require 40 str and apply -2 movement). In the same time, it will be possible to equip boots with +2 to movement (which require 40 str too)
Your conception however requires the characters to wear high level armours, that might not be the best thing.
What is wrong with this? Gearing the character is important goal for most players in all RPGs.

You can combine defense skill and absorption, but make sure, that defense is used to define type of armor, while absorption - its quality.

I thought that rings and amulets will increase magical resistances. The "Robes increase magical resistance" concept looks good, but I bet that mages doesn't need this kind of resistances at all. If someone going to attack them, then he will use melee physical attack because of high ranged magical retaliation.

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