Vision changes in 1.11

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SlowThinker
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Re: Vision changes in 1.11

Post by SlowThinker » May 9th, 2012, 12:07 pm

fabi wrote:They stay covered by fog, thus you can guess were the enemy is using a jamming unit.
Remember, jamming can only work if fog is enabled, it's not able to produce fog in scenarios (or better for sides) where fog is disabled.
I see some problems:
You should add a warning like "new jammed hex sighted!", and a hotkey that will show all hexes with fog created by jamming.
But still it will let a large field for micromanagement: a player will usually be able to determine the exact jammer's position by moving units on the edge where the jamming takes effect, and studying positions of jammed hexes.
I still need to investigate if this is doable without heavy changes to the engine and most use cases might be doable with [hides].
[hides] ?

My guts told me that implementing a "Show Enemy Vision" equivalent to "Show Enemy Move" would be enough.
Vision is caused by units but the result is not bound to a single one thus it might not be necessary.
I agree a function "click unit - show its vision" would be useful in specific situations only: a (own or enemy) unit can advance 1-2 hexes only, and the player can determine a future vision (after a planned move) from the present vision.

But an improved functionality would be helpful:
choose unit - choose its position - show its vision

(similarly
choose unit - choose its position - for each hex (or for hexes that are reachable within x turns) show: number of turns needed to reach + remaining moves)

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Re: Vision changes in 1.11

Post by fabi » May 9th, 2012, 6:13 pm

SlowThinker wrote:I see some problems:
You should add a warning like "new jammed hex sighted!", and a hotkey that will show all hexes with fog created by jamming.
Yes, that is a good idea. I think this will end on my TODO more or less exactly like you proposed.
But still it will let a large field for micromanagement: a player will usually be able to determine the exact jammer's position by moving units on the edge where the jamming takes effect, and studying positions of jammed hexes.
Yes, indeed. And that is on purpose.
I seriously want to increase the complexity in this field.
Remember that this feature is purely for UMC (User made Content, not Campaign only - which does include total conversions).
If the designer fears/feels that the resulting game mechanics are too complex she can easily get rid of some (of the classic Wesnoth) features to compensate.
I will most likely not feature the time of day/alignment system in my addon for example.
[hides] ?
[hides] is recognized in [abilities] and responsible for abilities like "Ambush" or "Nightstalk". The WML Reference in the wiki is your friend here.
But an improved functionality would be helpful:
choose unit - choose its position - show its vision

(similarly
choose unit - choose its position - for each hex (or for hexes that are reachable within x turns) show: number of turns needed to reach + remaining moves)
I think that I will not implement any of those in c++ but write lua adapters to the functionality. Thus the designer can see how complex she needs her gui to be in order to fit the game mechanics.

SlowThinker
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Re: Vision changes in 1.11

Post by SlowThinker » May 10th, 2012, 10:29 am

But still it will let a large field for micromanagement: a player will usually be able to determine the exact jammer's position by moving units on the edge where the jamming takes effect, and studying positions of jammed hexes.
Yes, indeed. And that is on purpose.
I seriously want to increase the complexity in this field.
Also there is a question of RTS / TBS fog (so far I didn't download 1.11 and I don't know how it works exactly):
As a player in most situations I would prefer a TBS fog, although for that search of a jamming unit I would prefer to switch to RTS fog.

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Re: Vision changes in 1.11

Post by fabi » May 10th, 2012, 10:34 am

SlowThinker wrote:Also there is a question of RTS / TBS fog (so far I didn't download 1.11 and I don't know how it works exactly):
As a player in most situations I would prefer a TBS fog, although for that search of a jamming unit I would prefer to switch to RTS fog.
TBS == Turn Based Strategy Game?
RTS == Real Time Strategy Game?

Can you explain me the difference of the two fog types, please?

SlowThinker
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Re: Vision changes in 1.11

Post by SlowThinker » May 10th, 2012, 11:03 am

TBS, RTS - yes.
I used that term in my 1st post in this thread already, with this link: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=23105
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Re: Vision changes in 1.11

Post by fabi » May 10th, 2012, 7:36 pm

Oh yes, got it.
The delay before re-fogging is the key.

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lipk
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Re: Vision changes in 1.11

Post by lipk » May 11th, 2012, 11:05 am

Hmmm... would it be impossible to make vision somehow dependent on tod as well? I've got no clue what could it be used for, but since you're flexibilizing the vision system anyway, I think it'd be a kinda logical move.

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Re: Vision changes in 1.11

Post by SlowThinker » May 11th, 2012, 11:15 am

fabi wrote:The delay before re-fogging is the key.
What do you want to say?
(In case there is some misunderstanding between us: by TBS fog I mean: no re-fogging; fog is only removed during player's turn, and never recreated)
lipk wrote:Hmmm... would it be impossible to make vision somehow dependent on tod as well? I've got no clue what could it be used for, but since you're flexibilizing the vision system anyway, I think it'd be a kinda logical move.
People can do it in their addons - just change vision of units when TOD changes.
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TheBladeRoden
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Re: Vision changes in 1.11

Post by TheBladeRoden » May 13th, 2012, 10:14 am

oh good, now land lubbers can be made to see across the water, or have greater vision when standing on a mountain!
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SlowThinker
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Re: Vision changes in 1.11

Post by SlowThinker » May 13th, 2012, 10:42 am

TheBladeRoden wrote:... or have greater vision when standing on a mountain!
Unfortunately it is not so easy.
Wesnoth provides a move_to event that that is fired after any unit ends its move; it will allow to change vision just after the unit's movement ends on the top of a mountain. Unfortunately there is no event that would be fired before a unit starts to move, and therefore any unit descending from mountains would keep better vision during all its move.
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Xudo
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Re: Vision changes in 1.11

Post by Xudo » May 14th, 2012, 11:28 am

SlowThinker wrote: Wesnoth provides a move_to event that that is fired after any unit ends its move; it will allow to change vision just after the unit's movement ends on the top of a mountain. Unfortunately there is no event that would be fired before a unit starts to move, and therefore any unit descending from mountains would keep better vision during all its move.
I thought what fog will be refreshed after unit ends his turn. Not during movement.

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Re: Vision changes in 1.11

Post by SlowThinker » May 14th, 2012, 1:42 pm

How would a message "enemy unit sighted!" work then?
I think fog is refreshed on any individual hex the unit moves through; and so a new event that would be fired with every 'micro-move' would be needed to manage a general situation (= each terrain type may adjust vision a different way)

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bumbadadabum
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Re: Vision changes in 1.11

Post by bumbadadabum » May 14th, 2012, 5:53 pm

Won't mass application of this break KISS a little?

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Re: Vision changes in 1.11

Post by fabi » May 14th, 2012, 11:13 pm

bumbadadabum wrote:Won't mass application of this break KISS a little?
I don't know what "this" is in the context of the thread.
The vision features in general or using them for having a bigger vision range on mountains?

And how would you define mass application?
Mass application of almost everything is a bad thing.
Owning too much money might spoil your character.
Drinking too much water kills you.
Sleeping too much isn't healthy.
Living too long might be boring.

Anyway, I think any discussion about KISS is obsolete in this thread.
Surely none of the features discussed here will make it in mainline campaigns or the default era.

If an addon using the features can still called being KISS (Wesnoth's KISS) is the designer's and his players' concern.
I think you can have a game mechanic, which heavily relies on all sort of vision tricks but keeps out most of Wesnoth's other features, being similar complex.
On the other hand can you make incredibly complicated addons (even without the new vision features) but still find some happy players in the community.

And last but not least, how do you define KISS?

"Stupid" is a highly individual term, I guess Albert Einstein could still call people stupid whose skills surpass mines by dimensions.
"Simple" is the same thing as well.
There is the human with autism managing complex structures in one area while being below normal skill level at others.

Who defines "our" KISS?
If you ask 20 Wesnoth developers how they understand the term you will get 20 different answers.

Thus, I ask you, what do you expect to get for an answer to such an unspecific question?

And to continue my rant (don't take this personally, isn't your fault, just had enough discussions about it):
IMHO the KISS argument is highly overused (and abused) within the community.
Together with CABD which is used in many situation where it is just not applicable.

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alexanderthegre
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Re: Vision changes in 1.11

Post by alexanderthegre » May 15th, 2012, 4:30 pm

Well, it seems to me that mainline is very KISS, and are not add-ons for when you want something a little different? :lol2:

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