[mainline] Loyalist Bowman

[Madlok]

Every land unit in the water is OP vs magical attacks. They gain extra 10% defence XD

[soul_steven]

it seems some people lack the comprehension of the word sarcasm... sigh is it really that hard a concept? Perhaps we need some aquabows to come and shoot you to teach a lesson!

[Xalzar]

If you want to use more Bowmen and you think Spearmen are more used, then you can also rise the cost of said Spearman by 1.
Happy Drakes.

P.S.: It is a serious proposal. If Bowmen are to be buffed or made cheaper, then Drakes are destined to extinguish very soon. Dragons already are nearly all dead, protect the endangered Drakes!
P.P.S.: I remember Bowmen costing 15 gold, while Spearmen 14 gold. I always tought the contrary would have been better.
P.P.P.S.: Obviously, no change can be implemented unless supported by lots of replays demonstrating the change perfects the balance, I know this very well.

[Horus2]

I already saw someone spamming auqabowmen on Clash, he single-handedly defeated both opponents before the bat rush of his ally could interfere in the game.

[Temuchin Khan]

If you want to use more Bowmen and you think Spearmen are more used, then you can also rise the cost of said Spearman by 1.
Happy Drakes.

P.S.: It is a serious proposal. If Bowmen are to be buffed or made cheaper, then Drakes are destined to extinguish very soon. Dragons already are nearly all dead, protect the endangered Drakes!
P.P.S.: I remember Bowmen costing 15 gold, while Spearmen 14 gold. I always tought the contrary would have been better.
P.P.P.S.: Obviously, no change can be implemented unless supported by lots of replays demonstrating the change perfects the balance, I know this very well.

This raises another good point that advocates of the change need to deal with: wouldn't the disadvantage of unbalancing Loyalists vs. Drakes outweigh their preference for seeing more Loyalist Bowmen in the field?

[Huumy]

Sorry Cackfiend I gotta disagree with you here.

I think the problem is not the bowman low damage in melee but the fact there's units that do it's job better, spearman does better damage than bowman and have better HP, mage does way better ranged damage but has less HP.

I think increasing bowman melee damage just makes the bowman better at their one role which vs drakes and it just makes loys slightly better vs drakes. Nothing else

I liked the idea of giving them 9-2 attacks, giving them new role... tho I fear simply doing that would make the loyalist deathball of spearmen, cavalry, horsemen, mage just a slightly better with added bowmen.

In my opinion spearmen and cavalry (maybe even horsemen) need some changes or nerf before changing the concenpt of the bowmen.

[Rigor]

this is one idea, and the other is to give them 1 more mp: like that, nothing could go wrong with the damage they deal and at the same time they would become more useful than they arre at this moment. besides, its quite unclear why the archer who has relatively few heavy things on himself should not fit into his role better and be faster wherever he goes. at worst, hes as fast as a heavy infantry.


id reserve the "2 strong attacks" eventually for the orcish archer (when ppl find out hes too strong in 1.10.0) to avoid too many similarities between factions, thats why i decided to stick to my +1mp idea.

[Oook]

Not keen on a 6mp bowman - this would make them much stronger against drakes, for a start. Easier to chase down clashers / fighters, and quicker to the front. Also, extra mp could often let them get in an extra attack before retreating, if it means they can retreat in good order the following turn, rather than risking being caught / trapped.

[Reepurr]

Throwing my own experiences into the melting pot:
I doubt +1MP would be sensible for the Bowman. This would make them a quasi-scout still capable of some impressive Piercing damage, able to both capture villages and hold them.
I would also prefer people not to try and argue that Spearmen are better than Bowmen. If a Spearman attacks enemies, he'll almost certainly get attacked back. But when faced with mobs of Bowmen, there are many enemies that can't retaliate. Yes, the former does a tad more damage, but the latter can ignore melee units who deal even higher damage than the Spearman.

IMHO it could be interesting if the Bowman would have a slightly weaker Marksman attack, which could give it a second use - a cheapish way of dealing with Elves and Dwarves who have 70% resistances in some terrain and in the Knalgans' case, the humble Thief. I would say that 8-2 could work.

[Battlecruiser_Venca]

what will you do as drake vs 6 or 7 MP bowmen? They can catch your clashers fairly easily. (and nouw thy have same MP as your fighters)

I do disagree with any bowman buff since it will imbalance drake MU, to improve bowman usage I'd nerf spearman instead since Loyalists are threated as generally overpowered faction to preserve game balance.

[IPS]

Throwing my own experiences into the melting pot:
I doubt +1MP would be sensible for the Bowman. This would make them a quasi-scout still capable of some impressive Piercing damage, able to both capture villages and hold them.

1 MP more is a great buff... would make the bowman really overpowered; +1 movement upgarade can be compared with +20% hp buff.

Some statistics between health x movement relation

Actual bowman
33 x 5 = 165 Health x Movement

Actual spearman
36 x 5 = 180 Health x Movement

Suggested bowman
33 x 6 = 198 Health x Movement


Movement and health factors are important, so a unit with high health x movement relation should be like an atletic unit. Makes sence about the spearman is more atletic than the bowman, but if the bowman get's +1 movement buff it's like if the bowman get 39.6 [33+[33x1/5)] health instead 33 .

Looking at the [33+[33x1/5)] we can resume the next stuff:
[33x1/5)] = 6.6
33 + 6.6 = 39.6

So I think it's a rasonable proof demostrating the +1 movement buff is similar to a 7 hp buff (atleast for me); this would make the bowmen even better than the spearmen.

[Boldek]

Throwing my own experiences into the melting pot:
I doubt +1MP would be sensible for the Bowman. This would make them a quasi-scout still capable of some impressive Piercing damage, able to both capture villages and hold them.

1 MP more is a great buff... would make the bowman really overpowered; +1 movement upgarade can be compared with +20% hp buff.

Some statistics between health x movement relation

Actual bowman
33 x 5 = 165 Health x Movement

Actual spearman
36 x 5 = 180 Health x Movement

Suggested bowman
33 x 6 = 198 Health x Movement


Movement and health factors are important, so a unit with high health x movement relation should be like an atletic unit. Makes sence about the spearman is more atletic than the bowman, but if the bowman get's +1 movement buff it's like if the bowman get 39.6 [33+[33x1/5)] health instead 33 .

Looking at the [33+[33x1/5)] we can resume the next stuff:
[33x1/5)] = 6.6
33 + 6.6 = 39.6

So I think it's a rasonable proof demostrating the +1 movement buff is similar to a 7 hp buff (atleast for me); this would make the bowmen even better than the spearmen.

Buffing the bowman wouldn't be a bad idea. Generally for me, my bowman gain xp slightly faster than spearman, but they get beaten up by the orcs and trolls I employ them most against. Giving a bowman more hp would help them survive the enemy turn when all those grunts and clashers get ticked about the missing 12 hp.

[Caphriel]

Uh... and what should the Northerner player do about your buffed bowmen that can now plink grunts and trulls with impunity, and then easily tank the counter-attack, while doing some retaliatory damage of their own?

[Battlecruiser_Venca]

....not to mention that Drakes will be totally screwed...

[soul_steven]

The drakes are totally screwed if bowman gets +1 melee really? I wasn't aware that the bowman melee was so devastating... Now I know how to play this match up in the future, just spam bowman and make a wall so that when the clashers melee me I can own them in retal.