NoLuckEra

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Mabuse
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NoLuckEra

Post by Mabuse » August 2nd, 2011, 12:02 am

NoLuckEra 1.0.0 is on add on server.





No Luck Era. 1.0.0
by Mabuse (based on work of pauxlo)

These are the two default Eras (Default+Age Of Heroes)
in which the units do the deterministic, average damage.

exceptions:
------------
weapons with slow and poison are still random based
all other factors like traits etc. are still random based.




the only thing which is deterministic is the average, mathematical damage, everything else is like standard wesnoth.

a unit with 10-4 against a defender on a 50% defense terrain will do 5-4 with 100% hit chance. = 20 damage

hf
Mabuse

(there may be slight rounding losses, i tried to balance them out by adding a 0.015 to the damage factor)



For Era Creators:
---------------------
(the wml is also able to handle (some) non default cth specials, so that you might use it also with other eras (you need to copy the relevant wml into them))



EDIT:

Era was created due to request from Skacz
http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33810
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

SKAcz
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Re: NoLuckEra

Post by SKAcz » August 2nd, 2011, 11:37 am

Thanks a lot,
I looked on it and seems work nice (I will test with chess friends later more).

I made also picture to introduce chess players and other who didnt like too random events fast :
Image

Caphriel
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Re: NoLuckEra

Post by Caphriel » August 2nd, 2011, 1:34 pm

SKAcz: Hi. I am a chess player. I like Wesnoth with random numbers. Please stop suggesting that all chess players hate games with randomness. This is not "Wesnoth for chess players," this is "Wesnoth without randomness." Thank you.

Mabuse: Is the damage dealt by weapon specials that inflict status still random, or just whether or not the special activates?

HomerJ
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Re: NoLuckEra

Post by HomerJ » August 2nd, 2011, 2:27 pm

Is it fun? I mean, some of the fun sometimes comes from the generic drake surviving against 3 adepts, or the ulf dying to a shaman.

Greetz
HomerJ
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SKAcz
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Re: NoLuckEra

Post by SKAcz » August 2nd, 2011, 2:48 pm

Re: Caphriel : I dont know what You call playing chess, but in chess rules accepted by FIDE no randomness exists. So if u define chess like strategy game with units moving on some map without randomness incorporated the moves result, then definitelly this version is more close to chess than original wesnoth, so is for chessplayer more simmilar. So in this sense (how i guess most of peoples understand it, because if most of peoples u will ask about some strategy game with randomness, they will maybe tell u poker or whatever, but i am sure not chess).
Re: HomerJ : fun is always subjective something, for one is fun the fast casino roulette game for another several hours of playing 1 chess game, for somebody else fast chess game, for somebody slow random game. Unless You can proove that its fun for most of peoples, but thats hard proove even in sense of humor i guess.

Velensk
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Re: NoLuckEra

Post by Velensk » August 2nd, 2011, 2:54 pm

He plays chess without randomness and likes it for that.

He plays wesnoth with randomness and he likes it for that.

Is that really so hard a concept to grasp?
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

SKAcz
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Re: NoLuckEra

Post by SKAcz » August 2nd, 2011, 3:01 pm

Well lets use example : if u will prepare food for some peoples You know they often dont eat meat, You will prepare steak and call it food for vegetarians true ? That some of vegetarians sometimes likes meat doesnt means that food from meat is vegetarian, but if You call food without meat food for vegetarians You will be right, right ? Well maybe in english its different, but if i transtale it from view of logic only seems to me this interpretation valid.

Velensk
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Re: NoLuckEra

Post by Velensk » August 2nd, 2011, 3:11 pm

He is objecting to your claims that people who enjoy chess cannot appreciate the strategy and diversity which comes from random effects or in other words the idea that your chess playing friends would hate wesnoth simply because it has chance in it and the game they are more familiar with does not.

Wesnoth is no less a strategy game because of random factors merely a different kind of strategy game which requires you to make plans for multiple contingencies and make decisions when there will be a degree of uncertainty.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Caphriel
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Re: NoLuckEra

Post by Caphriel » August 2nd, 2011, 4:31 pm

What Velensk said. I like chess for what it is. And yes, I play by FIDE rules, although I've been known to play variants at times. I like Wesnoth for what it is.

I resent your implication that I can't like both. You are claiming that anyone who plays the game of chess will prefer Wesnoth without randomness. That's just not true.

Are you next going to suggest that since chess is a game of perfect information, Wesnoth chess players should always play Wesnoth with fog off? Or that since in chess, you only move one piece per turn, chess players only move one unit per turn when playing Wesnoth?

I will repeat this:
I play chess. I am a chess player. I like Wesnoth as it is.

Also, your example about vegetarians makes no sense. Are you trying to claim that chess players only like chess, or only like games with no randomness? If I understand correctly, vegetarian is chess player, meat is randomness. In which case, you are just wrong. I'm proof by counter-example.

"Being a chess player" is not the same as "wanting no randomness."

Danceman
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Re: NoLuckEra

Post by Danceman » August 2nd, 2011, 5:09 pm

I wonder why the forum is full of comments about, should it be random, shouldn't it be random???? Wesnoth's best feature is that its open source, it has tools to change the game in new ways. Just let people experiment. Wesnoth isn't just the code that is open, the rules, the stories, ideas, are all behide the open source philosophy.

Please let people express there new ideas.

I found out about Wesnoth because of a game i play, I wanted something open similar to it. The game I play is much more like chess, it only has the deployment has the random part, but still we all love playing it, all the players around it, the universe and the tournaments.

So i'm very anxious to see how this new era may turn out (shame it isn't scifi). I like Wesnoth but I still feel it has something missing from it or maybe I just want it to be more like the game I play online.

Thank you to does that want to explore new ideas. Wesnoth is the right place. All we need is now that everyone have a open source mentality. Please be more tolerant and helpful. Thank you

HomerJ
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Re: NoLuckEra

Post by HomerJ » August 2nd, 2011, 6:30 pm

Danceman wrote: Wesnoth is the right place. All we need is now that everyone have a open source mentality. Please be more tolerant and helpful. Thank you
To clear this up, open source still does not mean that key features of the game will be changed instantly because some people think it's a good idea.
Every member of this forum will be most helpful and kind to anybody who is willing to put some work into changes himself. But most of the time, this is not the case and people just post:
I played for one week and the rng sucks. Change it!

Edit: I feel like I misinterpreted your point here. The argument in this thread is not that people do not appreciate the addon itself, but that op stated (or was understood) that every chess player will be playing noluck instead of traditional. Which is of course nonsense as generalizations are in general.

Greetz
HomerJ
Six years without a signature!

Caphriel
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Re: NoLuckEra

Post by Caphriel » August 2nd, 2011, 6:34 pm

To clarify, I have nothing against this mod and I support people playing Wesnoth however they want. I'm just trying to convince SKAcz to clarify his language and stop stereotyping chess players :)

SKAcz
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Re: NoLuckEra

Post by SKAcz » August 2nd, 2011, 6:45 pm

Re Caphriel : I did think about it again, and i really cannot find another way how better explain. I can only try say it other words, maybe it will help, because i am not so good in english: if we sort strategy games based on properties, especially on level of external randomness in game I am sure we can make agreement that on axis will be chess, wesnoth NoLuckEra without fog of war, wesnoth NoLuckEra with fog of war, wesnoth standard 2 players game, wesnoth standard 4 players (each vs each) game without players can negotiate each with other, poker on real table where You know oppopents from history and You can read some informationjs about them like smile, gestures or even beating , poker (on internet in 1 tournament, without possibility of read any info about opponents person), roulette ... more left less random less external informations working like randomness. And now If somebody learn how to play chess I hope we can agree that from view of skills he learned in chess and thinking he learned, what will be able play best (statistically over whole chess population) and win most of games as soon as possible, logically the game which is close to chess on this axe. Thats all what I saying, and what is based on experience. Also for example hiden information is still no randomness so its close to chess, even if a bit more right on axe. And finally here its not only 1D axe here is more axes from view of other properties of game (like number of units, map size, various types of fight principles, rules, ...) and if we stay close to chess from the first randomness axe i showed we can explore the space, but if we skip too much right, we never can ... I hope it will help You understand.
PS. I like also sometimes to play roulette or poker, but its not proove that poker is same game as chess. I am poker player or chess player ? Its not about it. What one person likes doesnt proove nothing. Playing every game can bring something new, can help discover some principles we can use in other situations (who knows where else ...).
All we need is now that everyone have a open source mentality.
Yeah thats could be nice, its why i offered the level of randomness as parameter, what some way add-on is.
I dont wish remove single property wesnoth has now, only wanted to add new feature.
But I am afraid that to be open source thinking is always for peoples harder, because peoples like (simplifying) standards.
And I am grateful to Mabuse that giving the opportunity to explore game more close to chess from view of randomness.

PS. Its also possible to add into this add-on end of game for example in moment when somebody will reach we can say 1000 gold (i posted it before as Gold Win topic somewhere i guess, but nobody respond, so maybe was not possible to do, maybe Mabuse know how to do it, and because here is no Mabuse work thread I asking here, so sorry for repeating it ) on his account ? That way could be also tested battles for resources, what is more easy to end than kill opponents leader. But if not I am happy with NoLuckEra as it is, because on smaller maps with lower income leader can be killed easy :)

Danceman
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Re: NoLuckEra

Post by Danceman » August 2nd, 2011, 9:27 pm

@SKAcz

Chess is a turn based game (maybe the only thing it shares with Wesnoth in my opinion), it has no randomness, deployment is equal, units are equal, the board is always the same, this is in its most known way. There are many chess variant. Battle vs Chess has a maniac mode which places units in a random position on the board, than both players will have to play it out and its chess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shZ-fAGEJ_w

If your idea may appeal chess players, its hard to say, maybe they love Wesnoth because it is different. But I think I get what you want, maybe its what I have been looking for, a more puzzle like battle. I think Wesnoth is a turn based strategy game and maybe what you want is a turn based tactical game.

You want a game which has no randomness to be more fair, so both side can be equal. I don't know if Wesnoth in its normal gameplay will work well. The way units attack are limited (all have to be close to attack) and there movement are all the same (only there distance change, not like the knight in Chess), so players would have to used the right strategies to win.

Now lets think about it, if both players simply copy each other, the only think different would be the terrain. So we have another random problem, which player has the best part of the map. This would mean a game would have to be played in two games or more, both players using both sides of the map.

I compare Wesnoth more to checkers/GO than to chess, because of the close attacks and the surrounding movement.

The game I play, we have no random attacks, but we do have a random deployment, both players place there units at the start. Almost like wesnoth pop out units and placing them. But we do have long range units, or better, units with different ranges, 1,2,3,4,5 and 6. Units with different movements, diagonal, straight, only go in front. We also can split units which helps with defense (cannon fodder). But in the end deployment (the strategy) makes a big difference, how you use units, they way you split units and mistakes the opponent makes, how you use the 6 moves per turn. Each turn is like a puzzle, what I can do in 6 moves. The limitations and flexibility gives it fun and knowledge to win

In Wesnoth, without randomness, and since in normal maps, you can only attack at close range. The strategy would be more around what units that are produced, your formation, terrain, and how units are used (there special abilities). But like I said before, terrain still makes a big difference, so I think what you want to achieve isn't enough because of the way Wesnoth is played, taking out all the randomness and terrain, the game become more like a checkers game or even a Go game, based on concentration, not making mistakes. Yes its also fun but is it better? I hope you can prove its a fun and challenging game. Remember Wesnoth is balanced in its present form. Only taking out randomness may not be enough to achieve a new fun competitive game.

The famous turn based game of Advance Wars, I think had no randomness but had a very good quantity of different units: movement, range, special abilities, terrain. Maybe that is what you need to make your idea a bit more fun.

But I do hope you can come up with something new and different. And new cool campaign is always welcome. Good luck

By the way this is only my own opinions. Some of it may be incorrect, I'm still a newbie at Wesnoth. But I do read alot about turn based games. Hope some of this may help you.

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Crendgrim
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Re: NoLuckEra

Post by Crendgrim » August 2nd, 2011, 9:31 pm

You still generalize chess players. You still say, every chess player would learn Wesnoth easier without RNG influence. I do not think so.
Caphriel is totally right, even as a chess player you can enjoy Wesnoth for its randomness. I also used to be a chess player (though I didn't play any more since I discovered Wesnoth :P ) and I understood the mechanics soon, and I really like Wesnoth for them.

If you really go to Wesnoth and expect a chess-like game, then you are right. But if you want to learn a game, you won't go to it with certain expectations, but rather open minded: What can this very game offer? How does this work?
I did not look for a chess game, else I would have started to play GNU Chess or something. I looked for a good strategy game, and this is probably what most people to, them being chess players or not.


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