Giant Rat movetype

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply
Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Giant Rat movetype

Post by Velensk »

I've been looking at the giant rat and it's movetype felt a little too... human. I think that it would be more thematically fitting for giant rats to get either their own moveype or a different movetype and considering how weak they are already I don't think making them slightly more elusive/terrain-mobile will be too much of a problem. That said, I'm not sure which campaigns use them so it's hard for me to say if this'll make them require rebalancing (they are a relatively recent addition to core so I'd suspect not many). I have taken the liberty of writing up a proposed movetype for them though I have little problem with others tweaking it.

As a minor side note, they seemed rather weak for their cost. 13 gold for a level 0 with 15 hitpoints, 4 mp, a 2-4 attack, and smallfoot movetype with a lack of traits seems a bit much. They are not commonly recruitable but even if someone decides to add them to an enemy recruit list, they will either skew the gold amount that side requires or be considered useless by the AI. Even with my significantly stronger movetype I doubt they'd be cost efficient.

Code: Select all

    [movetype]
        name=rodentfoot
        [movement_costs]
            shallow_water=2
            reef=2
            swamp_water=2
            flat=1
            sand=2
            forest=1
            hills=2
            mountains=3
            village=1
            castle=1
            cave=1
            frozen=2
            fungus=2
        [/movement_costs]

        [defense]
            shallow_water=70
            reef=60
            swamp_water=50
            flat=50
            sand=60
            forest=40
            hills=40
            mountains=40
            village=50
            castle=50
            cave=40
            frozen=60
            fungus=40
        [/defense]

        [resistance]
            blade=100
            pierce=100
            impact=100
            fire=100
            cold=90       #I'm not sure how warranted this is, but I grew up in a rather cold area and the rats seemed to prosper there. I figure a bigger rat would do even better.
            arcane=80
        [/resistance]
    [/movetype]
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

User avatar
Deusite
Translator
Posts: 110
Joined: May 31st, 2009, 1:38 am
Location: Oxford

Re: Giant Rat movetype

Post by Deusite »

They're used in Descent into Darkness, during a cave scenario after
Spoiler:
AKA Marz
Two profiles are better than one
Latin Translator

Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Giant Rat movetype

Post by Velensk »

If that is the case then the fact that I have them 1 mp through caves might be a problem but I don't remember that level well enough to say for sure.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

User avatar
hhyloc
Translator
Posts: 234
Joined: July 6th, 2009, 3:19 am
Location: the netherworld

Re: Giant Rat movetype

Post by hhyloc »

IMO, the changes in it's movetype won't affect the balance of the Descent into Darkness scenario since there're only three Giant Rats IIRC, and the Giant Rat too weak to withstand Mal Keshar's attacks even with it new 10% resistance against Cold.
But it's new defence is another story, the new 60% and 50% defence on cave and flat will make it more risky for Mal Keshar to attack given that Mal Keshar has only 1 HP at the start of the scenario, other defence stats seems ok to me. :hmm:
R.I.P

User avatar
Alarantalara
Art Contributor
Posts: 782
Joined: April 23rd, 2010, 8:17 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Giant Rat movetype

Post by Alarantalara »

Actually, the defence values won't really affect the balance of the Descent into Darkness scenario at all. He has already been given a 100% chance to hit everything for the first 5 turns of the scenario, which is when the rats are present, so they could have perfect defence and still not affect the scenario balance.

monochromatic
Posts: 1549
Joined: June 18th, 2009, 1:45 am

Re: Giant Rat movetype

Post by monochromatic »

Perhaps we also should reduce their cost to 6 gold or something..

User avatar
hhyloc
Translator
Posts: 234
Joined: July 6th, 2009, 3:19 am
Location: the netherworld

Re: Giant Rat movetype

Post by hhyloc »

Alarantalara wrote:Actually, the defence values won't really affect the balance of the Descent into Darkness scenario at all. He has already been given a 100% chance to hit everything for the first 5 turns of the scenario, which is when the rats are present, so they could have perfect defence and still not affect the scenario balance.
I dont know what are you saying at first, but after I checked the scenario cfg file I thick I get it now. :)
However, there is still 1 Giant Rat that Mal Keshar will encounter before going to his keep, by the time he reach that rat, the 5 turns of invulnerability has already over so the balance of the scenario will still be affected at any rates. :twisted:
The third rat of the scenario is too far to the North that it's unlikely that Mal Keshar will see it.
R.I.P

User avatar
boru
Posts: 788
Joined: November 19th, 2009, 11:02 pm

Re: Giant Rat movetype

Post by boru »

Last year there was some discussion in my UMC campaign thread regarding the giant rat movetype. http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 90#p455290

In Swamplings, there is a scenario with a giant rat battle. I retained most of the smallfoot movetype, with the following changes:

Code: Select all

    [movement_costs]
        shallow_water=2
        swamp_water=2
        forest=1
        cave=1
    [/movement_costs]
    [defense]
        swamp_water=50
        shallow_water=40
        cave=50
        village=30
        hills=60
        mountains=50
    [/defense]
The rats can also level up to a skirmishing unit :D
“It is written in my life-blood, such as that is, thick or thin; and I can no other.” - J.R.R. Tolkien

My campaign: Swamplings - Four centuries before the founding of Wesnoth, the first wolf rider emerges from a tribe of lowly swamp goblins.

User avatar
SigurdFireDragon
Developer
Posts: 488
Joined: January 12th, 2011, 2:18 am
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Re: Giant Rat movetype

Post by SigurdFireDragon »

Velensk wrote:As a minor side note, they seemed rather weak for their cost. 13 gold for a level 0 with 15 hitpoints, 4 mp, a 2-4 attack, and smallfoot movetype with a lack of traits seems a bit much. They are not commonly recruitable but even if someone decides to add them to an enemy recruit list, they will either skew the gold amount that side requires or be considered useless by the AI. Even with my significantly stronger movetype I doubt they'd be cost efficient.
I agree with this. I would recommend 5g (without movetype enhancement) or 6g (with new movetype), based on how they compare to the other Level 0's in mainline.

Also, the Giant Rat has a usage=scout, which is a poor fit for a 4mp unit, and would hamper authors making a recruitment_pattern for a side using the Giant Rat with other units. usage=fighter makes the most sense.

As the Giant Rat stands right now, because of it's high cost and current usage, it's likely that UMC authors who want to make use of it for factions or campaigns won't be able to use it very effectively with other units, unless they made changes to it.

Thus, to make the Giant Rat better fit into the mainline unit list, I think it would be good to change the cost and usage, with one/a mix of the proposed movetypes.

User avatar
Lord-Knightmare
Forum Regular
Posts: 1153
Joined: May 24th, 2010, 5:26 pm
Location: Somewhere in the depths of Irdya, gathering my army to eventually destroy the known world.
Contact:

Re: Giant Rat movetype

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

SigurdTheDragon wrote:
Velensk wrote:As a minor side note, they seemed rather weak for their cost. 13 gold for a level 0 with 15 hitpoints, 4 mp, a 2-4 attack, and smallfoot movetype with a lack of traits seems a bit much. They are not commonly recruitable but even if someone decides to add them to an enemy recruit list, they will either skew the gold amount that side requires or be considered useless by the AI. Even with my significantly stronger movetype I doubt they'd be cost efficient.
I agree with this. I would recommend 5g (without movetype enhancement) or 6g (with new movetype), based on how they compare to the other Level 0's in mainline.

Also, the Giant Rat has a usage=scout, which is a poor fit for a 4mp unit, and would hamper authors making a recruitment_pattern for a side using the Giant Rat with other units. usage=fighter makes the most sense.

As the Giant Rat stands right now, because of it's high cost and current usage, it's likely that UMC authors who want to make use of it for factions or campaigns won't be able to use it very effectively with other units, unless they made changes to it.

Thus, to make the Giant Rat better fit into the mainline unit list, I think it would be good to change the cost and usage, with one/a mix of the proposed movetypes.
I like Velensk's movetype for the Giant Rat. Its cost should be about 6g to 7g. I agree with SigurdTheDragon's usage for the Giant rat. I also think the damage should be increased to 3-4 to make the unit cost-effective.

User avatar
zookeeper
WML Wizard
Posts: 9741
Joined: September 11th, 2004, 10:40 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Giant Rat movetype

Post by zookeeper »

I think bumping the defense to 60% in forest and hills for example is a bit much and I'd rather keep their water movement at 3, but some/most of these changes should certainly be applied; I'll look into it.

User avatar
zookeeper
WML Wizard
Posts: 9741
Joined: September 11th, 2004, 10:40 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Giant Rat movetype

Post by zookeeper »

Committed. Changed usage to fighter, dropped cost to 6g, didn't touch attacks. However, I took quite a few liberties with the movetype, here's what it looks like now:

Code: Select all

    [movetype]
        name=rodentfoot
        [movement_costs]
            shallow_water=3
            reef=2
            swamp_water=2
            flat=1
            sand=2
            forest=1
            hills=2
            mountains=3
            village=1
            castle=1
            cave=1
            frozen=2
            fungus=2
        [/movement_costs]

        [defense]
            shallow_water=80
            reef=70
            swamp_water=60
            flat=50
            sand=50
            forest=50
            hills=50
            mountains=40
            village=50
            castle=50
            cave=40
            frozen=50
            fungus=50
        [/defense]

        [resistance]
            blade=100
            pierce=100
            impact=100
            fire=100
            cold=90
            arcane=80
        [/resistance]
    [/movetype]
These don't have to be final, so feel free to discuss them further.

Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Giant Rat movetype

Post by Velensk »

I don't see whats wrong with the 60% defenses, particularly those in forests as I'd always imagined that one of their favored homes (though this may be due to association with the Princess Bride) but I'm not too inclined to get overly worked up one way or the other. They'll be pretty weak monsters either way (which is fine, that is a part of their purpose).
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Post Reply