Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Post Reply
User avatar
Faello
Posts: 441
Joined: June 7th, 2005, 9:01 am
Location: Holy Office

Re: Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Post by Faello » April 8th, 2011, 10:45 am

Any informations regarding the balancing Northeners vs. Loyalist cavalry spam?

Some possible resolutions are already in the topic:
- limiting cavalry resistances
- limiting cavalry hit points
- limiting cavalry speed
- raising orcish archer ranged damage

I'd add another:
- lowering goblin spearman cost to 8gp
- add +1 movement point to goblin spearman

I think this matter can't be ignored forever.

Every good player I know (and I know some of the best around) would put his money on loyalists in this matchup. I'd do the same thing with current cavalry superiority vs Northeners. I'd also like to point out that some maps (like almost canonical Freelands) basically are the kingdom of cavalry ability to pursue with great speed and cut down anything that won't manage to go back to the defensive positions on time.

I think that first and foremost, it's the opinion of ladder 1vs1 players should be taken under consideration - 2vs2 is, kind of, auto-balanced almost per se thanks to the factions diversity in both teams - this auto-balancing factor isn't present in the 1vs1.

With regards,

Faello
The yellow jester does not play
but gently pulls the strings
and smiles as the puppets dance
in the court of the Crimson King.

soul_steven
Posts: 144
Joined: September 5th, 2009, 5:47 pm

Re: Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Post by soul_steven » April 8th, 2011, 10:49 am

I was thinking about this matchup the other day myself. What if maybe giving the cav negative fire resist? that would make the archer more useful in the matchup but not make it op vs UD for example by giving it more damage output. The downfall would be drake burners would destory them but to be honest how useful are cavs vs drakes anyways except for against an augur spam?

User avatar
Wintermute
Inactive Developer
Posts: 840
Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 10:28 pm
Location: On IRC as "happygrue" at: #wesnoth-mp

Re: Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Post by Wintermute » April 8th, 2011, 12:52 pm

Faello wrote:Any informations regarding the balancing Northeners vs. Loyalist cavalry spam?

Some possible resolutions are already in the topic:
- limiting cavalry resistances
- limiting cavalry hit points
- limiting cavalry speed
- raising orcish archer ranged damage

I'd add another:
- lowering goblin spearman cost to 8gp
- add +1 movement point to goblin spearman

I think this matter can't be ignored forever.
It's not being ignored - I've asked for replays and tried to play some games. I haven't been able to play many, though I have asked multiple people multiple times (I will keep trying but I'm wicked busy these days) - it's just that a good serious game takes a lot of time and many of the best 1v1 players are 6+ hours different than I am... it's just hard), the one loy/orc match I've played is in the replay archive - where are the others? Get some of these ladder games that are showing the problem and post them up! It will greatly speed this along if people post replays of the abuse so I don't have to personally test every aspect to form an opinion. Right now I don't know of a single replay that really points to the issue - and I grant you that there is probably an issue, it's just hard to know which of the proposed fixes works best until we see some of the exploits.
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."

Kolbur
Posts: 122
Joined: April 29th, 2009, 9:33 am

Re: Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Post by Kolbur » April 8th, 2011, 4:38 pm

Here's a bunch of Loyalist wins vs Northerners that feature a prominent number of cavalry.

http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A03%3A49
http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A40%3A08
http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A40%3A46
http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A48%3A36
http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A08%3A13
http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A46%3A17
http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A50%3A48

I searched for games that are all played by 2000+ players and had the match up in the description from around a period of one year.
I haven't watched them all (only fast forward to check out the cav use) and the rng can be quite uneven. Actually it's kinda ridiculous what you are asking for. You will never see THE single replay where cavs and only cavs completely own Northerners. The Wesnoth balance is far too mature for stuff like this to happen. Also there will always be unfair rng results, important mistakes by players, other units than cavalry being more important or more efficient etc that obfuscate possible unbalances. Of course you already know all this. :wink:
I hope these replays are helpful.

User avatar
Wintermute
Inactive Developer
Posts: 840
Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 10:28 pm
Location: On IRC as "happygrue" at: #wesnoth-mp

Re: Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Post by Wintermute » April 8th, 2011, 6:55 pm

Those look promising, I'll take a look when I can. You're right that no one replay is likely to be a magic bullet - but it helps a lot to get a sense of what players are doing, what interesting play and/or mistakes are happening. I'm also curious what leaders are involved. If it's all looey beating crossbowmen I'd wonder if that's more the problem than cav - but I'll watch and see hopefully tonight.
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."

Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3984
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Post by Velensk » April 8th, 2011, 7:58 pm

I think that goblins are already plenty powerful enough without being more mobile or being cheaper but especially not both at once.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

User avatar
Faello
Posts: 441
Joined: June 7th, 2005, 9:01 am
Location: Holy Office

Re: Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Post by Faello » April 8th, 2011, 8:33 pm

Agreed Velensk, but I posted both propositions as XOR .
The yellow jester does not play
but gently pulls the strings
and smiles as the puppets dance
in the court of the Crimson King.

User avatar
leocrotta
Posts: 69
Joined: August 10th, 2007, 10:37 pm
Location: down the dungeon

Re: Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Post by leocrotta » April 8th, 2011, 11:01 pm

Just another replay of a really interesting match I played today versus Oook on Elensefar.

http://ladder.subversiva.org/download-r ... %3A30%3A00
Live long and prosper.

User avatar
Horus2
Posts: 407
Joined: September 26th, 2010, 1:05 pm

Re: Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Post by Horus2 » April 9th, 2011, 12:37 pm

Here's my replay against Oook:

http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A17%3A37

I used two spearmen only, the rest was stablefolk, so i guess it will match the criteria.

Atz
Art Contributor
Posts: 313
Joined: August 21st, 2008, 2:22 am

Re: Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Post by Atz » April 9th, 2011, 3:54 pm

Horus2 wrote:Here's my replay against Oook:

http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A17%3A37

I used two spearmen only, the rest was stablefolk, so i guess it will match the criteria.
One thing I thought was interesting about this replay was that poor wolf rider in the south - at night he still deals less damage to the cavalry (per swing) than they do to him. It's like they're just rubbing the total inferiority of wolf riders in his face. Kinda makes me wonder what would happen if you gave wolf riders a 5-3 pierce attack...

User avatar
Rigor
Posts: 941
Joined: September 27th, 2007, 1:40 am

Re: Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Post by Rigor » April 9th, 2011, 3:58 pm

THAT is a very good idea. (i just remember there are drakes. hmmm... :D)

btw, i watched all replays so far and i absolutely loved the fact that i was trying hard to use all other units more than the cavalry. :D was a really cool game u managed to dig up, kolbur.

User avatar
tekelili
Posts: 1038
Joined: August 19th, 2009, 9:28 pm

Re: Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Post by tekelili » April 9th, 2011, 4:24 pm

Atz wrote: One thing I thought was interesting about this replay was that poor wolf rider in the south - at night he still deals less damage to the cavalry (per swing) than they do to him. It's like they're just rubbing the total inferiority of wolf riders in his face.
I never understood why cavs were so cheap, for me increase their cost to 18 becomes very clear when comparing them with 2 units: wolf raider and evish scout. I cant really find any reason from faction or unit balance point of view why scout is more expensive :shock:
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
World Conquest II

Atz
Art Contributor
Posts: 313
Joined: August 21st, 2008, 2:22 am

Re: Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Post by Atz » April 10th, 2011, 3:04 am

tekelili wrote:I never understood why cavs were so cheap, for me increase their cost to 18 becomes very clear when comparing them with 2 units: wolf raider and evish scout. I cant really find any reason from faction or unit balance point of view why scout is more expensive :shock:
Elvish scouts are expensive because they have extremely good movement - not only do they have 9 MP, they can run through forests at full speed. They also have better defence than cavalry in forests and hills.
Rigor wrote:THAT [ie. giving wolves a pierce attack] is a very good idea. (i just remember there are drakes. hmmm... :D)
You think? I would be worried that it would unbalance orcs vs. drakes. The other factions are mostly okay - I don't think there would be any effect at all against UD, Knalgans, or Northerners because they have no units which are more resistant to blade than pierce. There would be some effect against Rebels because the elvish scout is weak to pierce, but I think that would be relatively small since people don't usually spam elvish scouts and unlike cavalry they don't have resistance to blade. The biggest improvement would clearly be against Drakes and Loyalists.

A possible counterbalance would be giving wolves -10% or -20% to fire. Again, no effect on Knalgans and UD, since they have no fire attacks (convenient!). Slight effect on Loys and Rebels, since they both have magi. You don't typically see a lot of magi against Loys, so not too much of an issue there. Rebels are probably not an issue either because if anything it would help counterbalance the improvement against elvish scouts. The biggest effect would be against Drakes (burners, gliders, fighters) and in Northerner mirror matches (archers, L2 wolves).

Caphriel
Posts: 994
Joined: April 21st, 2008, 4:10 pm

Re: Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Post by Caphriel » April 10th, 2011, 3:44 am

The other factions are mostly okay - I don't think there would be any effect at all against UD, Knalgans, or Northerners because they have no units which are more resistant to blade than pierce
It would be a slight nerf against UD and Knalgans because they have units that are more resistant to pierce than blade. Wolves would lose about 2 points per hit against skeletons, and 1-2 against ghouls, footpads, thieves. This would make wolves a bit less effective at finishing off almost-dead units of those types, which would of course make it harder to level them.

I'm not making any claim about balance, just pointing that out.

Atz
Art Contributor
Posts: 313
Joined: August 21st, 2008, 2:22 am

Re: Balance Ideas (Unit Changes)

Post by Atz » April 10th, 2011, 9:48 am

Caphriel wrote:
The other factions are mostly okay - I don't think there would be any effect at all against UD, Knalgans, or Northerners because they have no units which are more resistant to blade than pierce
It would be a slight nerf against UD and Knalgans because they have units that are more resistant to pierce than blade. Wolves would lose about 2 points per hit against skeletons, and 1-2 against ghouls, footpads, thieves. This would make wolves a bit less effective at finishing off almost-dead units of those types, which would of course make it harder to level them.

I'm not making any claim about balance, just pointing that out.
I was talking about the case where wolves were given an additional attack, so they had a blade attack and a pierce attack. What you said would be true if their attack was just changed to pierce, though. I'm not sure that would work as well because as you point out it would change the UD and Knalgan matchups... although I guess it would also also nerf them against saurians a bit, which would help Drakes. Hmm.

While I'm talking about adding new attacks, I suppose I should actually consider what damage would be best if a new attack were added. I said 5-3 initially but that was just off the cuff based on their current attack. It would probably make more sense to make it a little lower if possible, to reduce the influence on other matchups. Making it 4-3 would still let wolves do more damage against cavs (6-3 or 7-3 rather than 4-3 or 5-3 at night, I think?) while minimising the effect elsewhere. 6-2 might also be possible but this would make wolves better in general, since it would give them one-strike kills in some circumstances. Neither of these really solves the drake problem, though reducing the damage does make it a little less of a change.

Post Reply