Project : New Ladder

[Just_end_turn]

Thanks moserware for helping, I will have a look at it and see how good is the ruby port of it.

As a side note, there's now a repository in github (Search for ladder2) and some basic things have already been done.

[tiboloid]

There is absolutely no doubt that TrueSkill is the way to go. Its statistical foundations are very solid and it can handle fairly almost any kind of game: ffa, 2v2, 3v3, etc. For once Microsoft did something proper and put it in the public domain, so let's make the most out of it. I am happy to help with the statistical part if needed.

Cheers

[pauxlo]

I think even when using TrueSkill (which is able two combine results from different game types), you should have separate ladders (with separate mu and sigma) for the individual types, since there are different types of skills involved.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Anyone would like to contribute graphic design + standard compliant html/css layout?

[Cackfiend]

FYI, i am very against changing the 1v1 ladder system. If you want to create a seperate ladder system first for 2v2 and then see how that goes then fine... but theres really nothing wrong with 1v1 ladder system that it needs to be changed at all


its true that some players choose to mostly play lower ranked players for easy points but its still a good system because they get very few points for this and every once in a while they lose and lose tons of points


being one of the few people who refuses to play vs anyone ranked too lowly I would hate to see a change in the system to where I would have to play simply more games to get a higher ranking rather than consistently play vs tough players but not often.

Also, if you plan on wiping everyones record in order to start a new ladder its simply not fair. many of us have played hundreds of games to get where we are in the current rankings and it simply would make many people quit wesnoth if their records vanished.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Current ladder wont change at all. Even if I would like to do so I dont have rights for that so dont worry . What I want to do is to implement alternative experimental ladder.

being one of the few people who refuses to play vs anyone ranked too lowly I would hate to see a change in the system to where I would have to play simply more games to get a higher ranking rather than consistently play vs tough players but not often.

Thats a good point and the way ppl will advance on new ladder, besides that for more or less accurate rank less than 50 played games will hopefully be required.

[einsiedlerkrebs]

hey,

just to say, i think it would be a great idea, to implement group-games into ladder!

so if it is going to happen once, thanks for that!

[Just_end_turn]

hey,

just to say, i think it would be a great idea, to implement group-games into ladder!

so if it is going to happen once, thanks for that!

You mean like 2v2 or 3v3 ?

[einsiedlerkrebs]

yes, i ment 2vs2 and 3vs3. But i like the idea of a bot, or whatsoever, a self-reporting bit of software, which tells about who won-lost. but this is more a minor.

[Just_end_turn]

2v2 is already planned [3v3 is not much played, but shouldn't be very hard if we implement trueskill.]

[Rigor]

and we want to implement trueskill

[enacui]

When I notice 5min*4players*20turns=400min/game,I am sure I will not try it.
Ladder can be more popular if each game will be finish with in about an hour.

[cookie]

A new ladder is a good idea. There was once an 2v2 tag ladder idea from sidzej and Faello. It went to a standstill in the making I believe.
Here: http://aspspider.ws/sidzej/HomePage.aspx

And I think the project is a wonderful idea but kinda impossible. And hopefully you guys will have the skills to make it work. I wouldn't mind participating in 2v2 ladder. If you want any admins for it. Contact me!
Admin Cookie. Amazing ring to it x]

3v3 would be good too!

[Quetzalcoatl]

For any of you that are interested in alternate ranking system here is chat log between: Me, Kolbur, RiceMuncher and Rigor that briefly explains things (sry for chatlog version but I dont need to rewrite all of that). If any of you is interested in discussing it or proposing something better fell free to post / continue discussion here.

• Quetzalcoatl: hf
  Kolbur: wanna submerge or what?
  Kolbur: btw Rigor
  Rigor: ya
  Kolbur: do you see fire in the keeps too?
  Rigor: yea
  Kolbur: and?
  Rigor: yes i also think about it now that u said it
  Quetzalcoatl: i play ud cos seeing ud win is always impressive
  Kolbur:
  Quetzalcoatl: want challenge
  Rigor: i used to play ud when i started ladder
  Rigor: was a lot of fun
  Kolbur: ud are not THAT weak
  Rigor: thats what i say
  Rigor: kolbur is orcs
  Kolbur: i really like to play them actually
  Rigor: now both of u know
  Quetzalcoatl: k i messed already
  Rigor: kolbur showme how u recruit 3 times in succession
  Kolbur: what do you mean?
  Rigor: just try to recruit in 3 turns 3 times
  Quetzalcoatl: guys
  Quetzalcoatl: u have any ideas for new ladder?
  Quetzalcoatl: i can put anything you can imagine there
  Rigor: more admin functions such as retrieve PW because i can atm lol
  Rigor: can'T
  Rigor: which is pretty ridonculous ;D
  Rigor: do u use trueskill as rating system or did u find another ?
  Quetzalcoatl: i would do comments
  Quetzalcoatl: in user profile instad
  Quetzalcoatl: was thinking of the
  Quetzalcoatl: that
  Kolbur: i want full comments for everyone for each game
  Quetzalcoatl: yes already have that
  Rigor: rating system ?
  Quetzalcoatl: with char limit > than 255
  Quetzalcoatl: custom
  Quetzalcoatl: sry trueskill is bad
  Rigor: what else do u use
  Quetzalcoatl: it dosnt solve most annoying problems
  Rigor: which ones for example
  Quetzalcoatl: while its improvemnt over elo
  Kolbur: i am curious to see your superior custom rating system
  Quetzalcoatl: as there is no way to do it right
  Quetzalcoatl: i developed my own
  Quetzalcoatl: thats called LameSkill
  Rigor: no seriously ?
  Quetzalcoatl: need to do some calculations for values
  Rigor: how much time did u invest in that
  Quetzalcoatl: its simple
  Quetzalcoatl: 15 min?
  Kolbur: lol
  Rigor: and ur better ?
  Quetzalcoatl: maybe less
  Kolbur: i don't believe you
  Quetzalcoatl: obviously
  Rigor: neither.
  Rigor: show boobs
  Quetzalcoatl: it depends
  Quetzalcoatl: what do you mean by better
  Quetzalcoatl: its very simple
  Quetzalcoatl: from last 36 games
  Quetzalcoatl: 3 best wins and loses are substracted
  Rigor: i want to hear the reason why u would refuse to work with a 1) free 2) already working 3) approved rating system
  Quetzalcoatl: sure
  Quetzalcoatl: thats why:
  Quetzalcoatl: its bad as its adjust to current performance slowly
  Quetzalcoatl: its bad as its allows to play with any player
  Quetzalcoatl: more about that:
  Kolbur: you don't want to allow to play vs any player? lol
  Rigor: im still waiting for more details. u want to have 36 games and do some fixed formula on that. and then i decide to be an ass and play whomever i want, mostly very bad players, i have my 36 games and then ?
  Quetzalcoatl: trying to measure your skill on any kind of game
  Quetzalcoatl: thats bad as you should play with equally ranked players in generall if you want to advance
  Quetzalcoatl: so wins on noobs have to be less profitable
  Rigor: and if i dont
  Quetzalcoatl: for example
  Quetzalcoatl: you can play 20 games vs noob and win 100
  Quetzalcoatl: or
  Quetzalcoatl: play 20 and win 10 vs good player
  Quetzalcoatl: so
  Quetzalcoatl: with elo or true skill you get equal rank right?
  Quetzalcoatl: now:
  Quetzalcoatl: where is my ghost?
  Kolbur: i think you are underestimating the difficulty of creating a good rating system
  Kolbur: dead
  Quetzalcoatl: uncool
  Quetzalcoatl: elo is fine while you do not pick opponents
  Quetzalcoatl: or true skill
  Quetzalcoatl: but rating system is a tool
  Quetzalcoatl: to actually
  Quetzalcoatl: find good player and match them
  Rigor: with trueskill you get a cloud of uncertainty, so u can say u have a rank of 1779 +-25, depending on how many players u play in general
  Quetzalcoatl: so its kinda suckage in free pairing world
  Quetzalcoatl: thats do not change much as the base concepts are the same
  Quetzalcoatl: its not about accuracy of the system
  Quetzalcoatl: but behaviour it promotes
  Quetzalcoatl: in fact
  Kolbur: lol
  Quetzalcoatl: its impossible to create good system
  Rigor: thats what u would like to be ? moral police? lol
  Quetzalcoatl: for game like as wesnoth
  Rigor: ""better play only players of ur skill"" ? thats what u want the ladder to teach them?
  Kolbur: i think you are trying to do something that most people don't want...
  Rigor: im just asking if i understood u right
  Rigor: because that would be really a bad idea. i tried telling ppl to have to throw a coin to decide p1/p2, it didnt wor so well lol
  Quetzalcoatl: dont understand that part about moral police
  Rigor: if u wanted to make players play only economic matchups where they earn points
  Quetzalcoatl: what does it have in common with morality?
  Rigor: and if they dont they will suffer
  Rigor: or something
  Quetzalcoatl: all i
  Quetzalcoatl: m
  Quetzalcoatl: going to do
  Quetzalcoatl: is to stop
  Quetzalcoatl: ppl that play noobs
  Kolbur: why?
  Quetzalcoatl: from being top cool ladder players while they in fact aviod serious matches
  Rigor: i had the same opinion not too long ago. eyerouge told me its not a good idea
  Quetzalcoatl: becouse its not the same
  Quetzalcoatl: and by beating noobs and spend much time on it anybody can advance
  Quetzalcoatl: however
  Rigor: there is one big problem: you can still pick oponents, so that wont help u
  Kolbur: ok, i agree they rating should not profit from playing noobs, but why would you want them to stop playing them?
  Kolbur: their*
  Quetzalcoatl: its supprissing Rigor you are saing about 'morality, lol'
  Quetzalcoatl: as you were supporting that idea in the past
  Rigor: whats so surprising
  Quetzalcoatl: dont know what you are trying to say
  Quetzalcoatl: you would be able to play with anyone
  Rigor: yes i told u i think its bad if u can profit from noob points, but in the end its not that much points u earn and u have a chance to lose a lot of points, mostly 10 times more. and then again u have a bad reputation, the matches u play have a bad quality
  Quetzalcoatl: and get points from any game
  Rigor: and generally less fun agaisnt real oponents
  Quetzalcoatl: just having 100 on noobs will give you same ammount of points like
  Quetzalcoatl: if you would have
  Rigor: ok but with trueskill ud have this nice cloud of uncertainty, didu check the details of it? when u lose to a noob or lose to an expert?
  Quetzalcoatl: 40% wins vs good players
  Quetzalcoatl: its not a big difference
  Quetzalcoatl: you think so
  Rigor: yes im ready to accept that. peoples time is limited, and if they prefer to play only noobs and that with a system they will nothing but waste their own time of life lol my opinion has slightly changed towards : ""if u want to have bad games thats ok, go a
  Rigor: ahead
  Quetzalcoatl: so why there is elo inflation?
  Quetzalcoatl: gg
  Kolbur: gg
  Rigor: kolbur wanna play on that map
  jugador: can i help you
  Quetzalcoatl: srymsry messed this a lot
  Rigor: true
  Kolbur: there is inflation because new players come in and drop out early again
  Rigor: how do u want to help
  Quetzalcoatl: seriously
  Kolbur: and because of that strange reduced elo gain/loss above 2100 elo
  Kolbur: i have to do some stuff now, Rigor
  Rigor: im remaking game
  Rigor: Q wanna play
  Rigor: ok
  Kolbur: you two can play
  Quetzalcoatl: not making it proffitable would solve the problem
  Quetzalcoatl: cant now
  Quetzalcoatl: play second game
  Quetzalcoatl: anyway
  Rigor: yes would and then the pool would b e very limited all of a sudden
  Kolbur: i think you should just go ahead with trueskill and modify it to our needs
  Quetzalcoatl: if you have better idea instead
  Quetzalcoatl: of loling im open to listen
  Rigor: yes: trueskill
  Quetzalcoatl: thats just the best i found so far
  Rigor: why dont u give it a go
  Quetzalcoatl: explain why?
  Quetzalcoatl: and how
  Rigor: because i myself have been looking UP ND DOWN for rating systems, Q
  Kolbur: you can just reduce the rating gain at huge skill differences to 0
  Quetzalcoatl: its still
  Kolbur: afk now
  Quetzalcoatl: kind of the system
  Quetzalcoatl: : while you were ranked accuratelly once
  Rigor: bb kolbur
  Quetzalcoatl: it takes years to change that
  Rigor: did u read the paper of this guy who invented truskill ?
  Rigor: with all his sigma and mean value stuff
  Quetzalcoatl: invented or that link on forums
  Rigor: and example games
  Rigor: well this person made trueskill
  Quetzalcoatl: thebn yes
  Rigor: and he successfully sold his system to a very large company
  Quetzalcoatl: i dont understand that actually
  Rigor: we still have our elo, but its old and not the thing id really like to see in the future if u can have something better
  Quetzalcoatl: as
  Quetzalcoatl: whats ms have to do with wesnoth
  Quetzalcoatl: xbox live is arcade platform with thousands of player online
  Rigor: just an example that THEY are willing to pick up the idea and let it run on their consoles around the world
  Quetzalcoatl: thats not exactly the same thing
  Rigor: elo is also a system with millions of players
  Rigor: wesnoth is a system with max. 100 players daily
  Quetzalcoatl: isnt it used in chess tourneys?
  Rigor: mhm
  Quetzalcoatl: its totally differnt then
  Quetzalcoatl: as
  Quetzalcoatl: in each tourney
  Quetzalcoatl: each player in generall plays the same ammount of games with differnd ranked opponents
  Quetzalcoatl: so thats very differend
  Rigor: yes wesnoth is different
  RiceMuncher: helllooo everyone
  Quetzalcoatl: while in wesnoth
  Quetzalcoatl: you can play 1000 games with 1200
  Rigor: and uses elo still. dont know why u r so opposed to the idea of using tueskill instead. 2v2 would be possible too while with elo its a differetn cup of tea
  Rigor: hi RM
  Quetzalcoatl: and be the overlord of ladders
  Quetzalcoatl: hello
  RiceMuncher: elo and ts
  RiceMuncher: are similar
  Quetzalcoatl: agree on that
  Rigor: of course, they both rate ppl lol
  RiceMuncher: except ts can be used for team games
  RiceMuncher: its all s.d
  Quetzalcoatl: in fact they have more similarites than differences
  Rigor: and elo can not.
  RiceMuncher: except
  RiceMuncher: ts increases
  Quetzalcoatl: true
  RiceMuncher: regardless
  RiceMuncher: whereas elo GENERALL
  Rigor: i didnt know that u actualyl read urself into TS RM
  RiceMuncher: 2.??k is top
  RiceMuncher: no
  RiceMuncher: i dindt read
  RiceMuncher: i know coz i was top with ts in dawn of war 2
  Rigor: ah hehe
  RiceMuncher: lieterally
  RiceMuncher: its called ts LOl
  Rigor: so tell us first hand how ts works out its superiority
  RiceMuncher: well idk the specific maths behind it
  RiceMuncher: they all serve to rate ppl
  RiceMuncher: but if ur thinking about chaning
  RiceMuncher: ur gona have to consider
  RiceMuncher: 1. how fast ts/elo points are gona change
  Quetzalcoatl: besides that
  RiceMuncher: how ""accurate"" it is
  RiceMuncher: 2*
  Rigor: thats something u have to consider form the start, but the guy who wrote TS told me a good approximation for starters
  RiceMuncher: well u can read it at microsoft
  RiceMuncher: since they made it lmao
  Rigor: i dont have all well actually none of them online my head atm, too much information, but i know where to fid it again if u realyl implement it
  Quetzalcoatl: what do you have to do to have accurate rank while there are things like rng and obvious imbalances
  RiceMuncher: rng shud even out over long-term
  RiceMuncher: the real question is
  RiceMuncher: how many players
  RiceMuncher: or active players
  Rigor: yes?
  RiceMuncher: coz ts requires more players than elo
  Quetzalcoatl: so getting too excited about maths makes little sense
  RiceMuncher: WELL
  Quetzalcoatl: in rating system for wesnoth
  RiceMuncher: i havnt done maths since yr12
  RiceMuncher: LOl
  Quetzalcoatl: also
  Quetzalcoatl: have in mind
  Quetzalcoatl: (befoure you were loling Rigor)
  Quetzalcoatl: i told that ranking system is a tool for matching players
  Quetzalcoatl: and
  Quetzalcoatl: its point is to have
  RiceMuncher: ah yes
  Quetzalcoatl: games that are fun to play
  Quetzalcoatl: now
  RiceMuncher: ts requires game search function lol
  Quetzalcoatl: its kinda simlpe
  RiceMuncher: otherwise itll change ALOT
  RiceMuncher: (due to rng and small no. of games)
  Quetzalcoatl: to do almost perfect ranking system with almost no maths in it at all
  RiceMuncher: like
  RiceMuncher: for team games
  RiceMuncher: could it be possible
  Quetzalcoatl: true
  RiceMuncher: if we rate by teams
  RiceMuncher: so
  RiceMuncher: every Team
  RiceMuncher: starts at 1500
  Quetzalcoatl: example:
  RiceMuncher: so i play with rigor
  RiceMuncher: thats one team
  Quetzalcoatl: there is elo 2500 player
  Quetzalcoatl: and newcomer
  Rigor: argh
  Rigor: yes both of u talk at once
  RiceMuncher: ill stfu =]
  Quetzalcoatl: he beats him 5 times in 5 times
  Rigor: write longer sentences plz
  Quetzalcoatl: who is the best player then
  Rigor: 2500 obviously lol
  Quetzalcoatl: newcomer will be about 1750
  Quetzalcoatl: it has nothing to do with maths
  Quetzalcoatl: foundations are rotten
  Quetzalcoatl: thats all
  RiceMuncher: quetza no rating system is truely accurate lol
  RiceMuncher: i fink at this stage
  Quetzalcoatl: true
  RiceMuncher: we just need a rating system
  RiceMuncher: to allow for 2v2's
  Quetzalcoatl: thats why there is no point
  RiceMuncher: *shrug8 idk
  RiceMuncher: im not admind
  Rigor: yes, to have the technical possibilities
  Quetzalcoatl: in getting excited with little maths details
  RiceMuncher: agree
  Kolbur: your argument is only useful for having no ladder at all...
  RiceMuncher: coz theres not many active players
  RiceMuncher: prob best to stick with elo
  Quetzalcoatl: about 2v2
  Rigor: and so far i havent seen other rating systems that i find ok for wesnoth and team games
  Quetzalcoatl: im going to do clans
  Quetzalcoatl: so for example
  Quetzalcoatl: 4 players join it
  Quetzalcoatl: and
  Quetzalcoatl: 2 can start game
  Quetzalcoatl: and others finish it
  Rigor: others finish it ?
  Kolbur: ok then, no 2v2s for me
  Rigor: lol kolbur
  Quetzalcoatl: its ridiciolous to force same people
  Rigor: hahaha
  Quetzalcoatl: to play _whole_ day one game
  Rigor: oh well
  Rigor: this is another problem
  Quetzalcoatl: how many games will be reported then?
  Rigor: 1 per week probably
  Quetzalcoatl: 1 per month?
  Rigor: or somewhere in between
  Quetzalcoatl: you need 4 players to come together with whole free day?
  Quetzalcoatl: totall mess
  RiceMuncher: so we not having 2's? lol
  Rigor: but that has nothing to do with discussion
  Quetzalcoatl: why dont?
  Quetzalcoatl: sure it isnt
  Quetzalcoatl: disscussion is
  Quetzalcoatl: how its ts or elo
  Rigor: about rating tools. and only because u say u dont want noobsowning to be so reasonable for rank, u still didnt say what TS is gonan change on that. if u take TS as rating tool we at least have the possibility to establish 2v2s in future, with elo we dont
  Quetzalcoatl: superrior to system where you have fixed point per win
  Quetzalcoatl: anwser: it isnt
  Kolbur: Quetzalcoatl: just show us your extremely accurate non-mathematical flawless rating system... one step after the other
  RiceMuncher: indeed
  Quetzalcoatl: obviously it isnt accurate
  RiceMuncher: cant we have elo
  RiceMuncher: in 2's?
  Quetzalcoatl: and it isnt flawless
  Rigor: RM: NO and thats the whole point why i found TS in the first place lol
  Quetzalcoatl: but its targeted to solve other issuses
  Kolbur: then why are we talking about it?
  RiceMuncher: asif u CANt
  RiceMuncher: u just
  Rigor: lol rm im waiting for ur explanation right now
  RiceMuncher: do it like sc2 etc
  Rigor: u just.. sentences are the best imho lmao
  RiceMuncher: so
  RiceMuncher: rM +rigor starts at 1500
  RiceMuncher: versus another team
  RiceMuncher: A+B 1600
  RiceMuncher: lol
  Kolbur: of course you can use elo for 2v2, just have fixed teams and each team is like a single player
  RiceMuncher: yer
  RiceMuncher: thats wat i mean
  RiceMuncher: and of course
  Kolbur: it's just not really flexible like this
  RiceMuncher: u can have many teAMS =P
  Rigor: -> flexibility issues
  Quetzalcoatl: seriously
  Quetzalcoatl: just think
  RiceMuncher: wat do u mena flexibile?
  Kolbur: and write whole sentences dammit
  Quetzalcoatl: is there sth that can be worst than elo for a game with direct pairing?
  Quetzalcoatl: could be
  Rigor: and longer sentences plz i dont understand al ur ideas
  Quetzalcoatl: but i cant find it
  RiceMuncher: how abt
  RiceMuncher: i host a game
  RiceMuncher: we can talk more there =]
  RiceMuncher: LOl
  Rigor: what about i host this map RM and we play
  RiceMuncher: THIS MAP
  RiceMuncher: YUCK
  Rigor: thats what i say
  Quetzalcoatl: so
  Quetzalcoatl: seeing everything is bad
  Quetzalcoatl: im going to
  Quetzalcoatl: just give 1/10 of loser points to the winner
  Quetzalcoatl: limit games
  Quetzalcoatl: taht affect rating to 20
  Quetzalcoatl: *30
  Quetzalcoatl: adn
  Quetzalcoatl: and
  Quetzalcoatl: cut down point gain
  Quetzalcoatl: at some fixed barier below yours skill
  Quetzalcoatl: thats all
  Quetzalcoatl: if you can come with sth better
  Quetzalcoatl: ah
  Quetzalcoatl: he isnt there anymore
  Quetzalcoatl: Kolbur: ?
  Quetzalcoatl: brb
  server: Kolbur has left the game.
  server: Quetzalcoatl takes control of side 2.
  server: Quetzalcoatl droids side 2.
  Quetzalcoatl: i will post this on forums

Cheers
moral police

[pauxlo]

I didn't read the whole bit about the new rating system, but there definitely should not be a function "retrieve password" for the admin (that is, to retrieve the passwords of other users). At most, there could be a function "set new password". (Actually, the database should not store the password, but only a hash of it, and compare hashes on login.)

Paŭlo