Atz' maps

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Atz
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Atz' maps

Post by Atz » October 27th, 2010, 4:56 am

Had a break from making art, tried making maps instead. They're up on the 1.8 1.9 server now. There's a variety of maps, but they're mostly 1v1 or 2v2, medium-ish sized.

A few are probably terribly unbalanced, because this is my first attempt at making maps and I was experimenting a bit, but I've tried to get most of them into something resembling balance. Suggestions and comments welcome - there's probably a lot of room for improvements.

Not going to upload images for all of them since there's quite a few, but here's a sample:
Spoiler:
Last edited by Atz on March 7th, 2011, 5:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Atz' maps

Post by hhyloc » October 27th, 2010, 5:18 am

The first map looks a little...blank? Too much grassland will favor horseman/cavalry/wolf rider/... and foot units probably will be forced to fight in the center of the map.
Also, I think Northerner or Knalgan Alliance will be advantaged on this map due to many hills.
Just my thoughts... :hmm:
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Re: Atz' maps

Post by Reepurr » October 27th, 2010, 10:08 am

Indeed, I can see a gigantic duel going on there with elves and northerners in the middle bit of map 1. The dwarves can happily snap up all the hills and mountains in the middle, while the elves (and everyone else) are restricted to those small patches of forest. It would be nice to put in some patches of snow or sand or forest or whatever in that huge grassy land (again on map 1) so units can get the occasional defence bonus.
By the way, I sympathise - maps are really hard...

@ hhyloc: Knalgans do have an advantage, but northerners not so much as AFAIK they don't get any defence bonuses in hills.
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Re: Atz' maps

Post by hhyloc » October 27th, 2010, 10:19 am

Reepurr wrote:Knalgans do have an advantage, but northerners not so much as AFAIK they don't get any defence bonuses in hills.
Umm Northerners do get defence bonuses on hills, checked the units tree... Most Northerners have 50% defence on hills.
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Re: Atz' maps

Post by monochromatic » October 27th, 2010, 3:08 pm

hhyloc wrote:
Reepurr wrote:Knalgans do have an advantage, but northerners not so much as AFAIK they don't get any defence bonuses in hills.
Umm Northerners do get defence bonuses on hills, checked the units tree... Most Northerners have 50% defence on hills.
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Nope. Most foot units a have 50% in hills. Orcs have a movement advantage: 1 vs. 2 mp cost.

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Re: Atz' maps

Post by hhyloc » October 28th, 2010, 3:57 am

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Thanks for pointing out.
But I'm aware that most foot units have 50% defence on hills, just some misunderstanding. :)
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Re: Atz' maps

Post by Atz » October 29th, 2010, 5:46 am

Reepurr wrote:It would be nice to put in some patches of snow or sand or forest or whatever in that huge grassy land (again on map 1) so units can get the occasional defence bonus.
Snow? As far as I can recall, no unit in default has good defence on frozen terrain, though saurians get a gigantic movement penalty and drakes have even worse defence than usual.

Anyway, how does this look? Removed some of the hills around the centre, threw in some sand and a couple more patches of forest and mushrooms. Also a fort on each side. Thinking of removing those bridges, which would force everyone but drakes to go around past the village or trudge slowly through a patch of water and sand.
Spoiler:

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Re: Atz' maps

Post by Doc Paterson » October 31st, 2010, 1:35 pm

That has a pleasant look, and some of the elders might agree that it has a very 2004-retro character. :geek:

However- The player 1 advantage is off the charts. You should really read up on stealable villages, why they're bad, and how to avoid them.

It would also be good to increase your overall terrain density a bit throughout.
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Re: Atz' maps

Post by Atz » November 1st, 2010, 1:46 am

Well, I did start player 2 off with a couple of villages already owned, which you can't see in the screenshot. You're correct in that this wouldn't prevent player 1 going bat-happy and grabbing everything, though. I forgot just how far those wretched things can move...

Anyway, another try. I've moved or removed villages and added mushrooms so that bats and gryphons can't be used to steal anything on their second move. Except for that village close to the sandy bit, but it can be reached a turn earlier with an enemy scout or leader, and a turn later with infantry, so it's probably not advisable to try grabbing it.

Also added more non-flat terrain in general, and widened the rivers at a few points to make water units more useful - they were handy for trying to hold the centre and the emptier sections, but with the villages gone and more defensive terrain that's less important. Is this looking better? Topmost village is pre-flagged for P2, though it's not shown.
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Re: Atz' maps

Post by Doc Paterson » November 1st, 2010, 6:27 pm

Atz wrote:Well, I did start player 2 off with a couple of villages already owned, which you can't see in the screenshot. You're correct in that this wouldn't prevent player 1 going bat-happy and grabbing everything, though. I forgot just how far those wretched things can move...
P2 would be lucky if they were taken by bats, because at least those have low HP. As the map was though, any non-Loyalist P1 had 3 guaranteed steals. A Loyalist P1 had 2 guaranteed steals.
Atz wrote:Anyway, another try. I've moved or removed villages and added mushrooms so that bats and gryphons can't be used to steal anything on their second move. Except for that village close to the sandy bit, but it can be reached a turn earlier with an enemy scout or leader, and a turn later with infantry, so it's probably not advisable to try grabbing it.
I don't think it's a guaranteed steal anyway, so it's fine, but-
Often the issue is not so much that a village thief can (with normal EV) be killed in a turn or two, it is the disruption and positional advantage that can be set in motion by a player (P2 in this, and most cases) having to divert units before their other areas of the map are "secured."

It may be an issue that P1 can block off both of the advance keeps, if they want to. To take one of them, the P2 leader has to leave his home keep and spend several turns moving towards it. A player 1 leader can just stay at home, send units to block off those keeps, and hold them with a steady influx of units. P2's inability to recruit during the journey will make it very difficult to take either back, and once both are fully reinforced, the P1 leader can move to one or the other with relative ease, if he chooses. You may want to consider putting another few keeps in there, to allow a traveling leader to unload some of their gold along the way, and arrive with a better fighting force.

Another thing is that you should look out for sand, in general. This map already has the potential to be a bit Drake-favoring, and the movement advantage that sand gives them can be overpowering. You might want to consider cutting a hex or two. It may very well be fine- just keep an eye on it.
Atz wrote:Is this looking better?
Yes, much better. :)
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Re: Atz' maps

Post by Atz » November 2nd, 2010, 2:37 am

Doc Paterson wrote:Another thing is that you should look out for sand, in general. This map already has the potential to be a bit Drake-favoring, and the movement advantage that sand gives them can be overpowering. You might want to consider cutting a hex or two. It may very well be fine- just keep an eye on it.
Yeah, I'm aware that sand is advantageous for Drakes, and when I made the map I was a little worried that they would have an advantage. But until now, Drakes and Undead were the only factions which other people hadn't suggested would be too strong, so I thought it was probably okay to have a couple of sandy patches. I'm more worried about the keeps at this point. I might try shuffling them towards the (vertical) middle, and outwards a couple of hexes, which would make one keep slightly closer to each player. Alternately, I may just put a keep on that little fort halfway down.

EDIT: Argh, wretched six move leaders with weird movetypes! Decided the keeps were quite a large problem and moved them. Had a nice spot, I was happy with it... then I realised the Drake Warrior and Elf Ranger can reach it a turn earlier than they should be able to because they can run through rough terrain too fast. So now I have to move it again, and put in a big snowy patch to slow down the Drakes. This irritates me because I don't like the way snow meshes with other terrain - there doesn't seem to be an impassible variation of the snow mountain in 1.8, so I end up with regular impassible mountains next to snow mountains. Also there's no "partial snow" terrain which counts as flat, and I find it looks weird to go from total snow cover to shiny summery grasslands. I'd go to 1.9, but my internet connection is a bit wonky so I don't want to try downloading it at the moment. So, question: How big an issue is this? It's only one or two leaders out of dozens possible, but still...

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Re: Atz' maps

Post by Doc Paterson » November 2nd, 2010, 10:20 pm

You absolutely can fix that problem without using snow. Just post the map, and I'll show you.
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Re: Atz' maps

Post by Atz » November 3rd, 2010, 9:36 am

Worked out a way of fixing it without snow myself:
Spoiler:
Replaced a hill with an impassible mountain and changed the channel to deep water, thus forcing Drakes to go around, and then slapped a strategic mushroom patch in their way. I've attached the map file anyway if you were thinking of something different. Otherwise I think the issues are mostly fixed, and it's time for an update. Thanks for the help!
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Re: Atz' maps

Post by Atz » March 7th, 2011, 5:16 am

I've uploaded a new version to the 1.9 server, with a completely new map (see screen, attached), and with prettified versions of the old ones using the new terrains. No updates for 1.8, sorry. I'm liking the terrain updates too much.

Anyway, this is another 2v2, because I like those. It's a little unconventional in that allies are not adjacent to each other (it's P1+4 vs 2+3, if you look at the pic below). I find it makes it feel like an asymmetrical map even though it is symmetrical. Also, I've given the centre players an extra 25 gold to help them get their defences up at the start, since they tend to take the brunt of attacks. It seems to play okay with the AI but I'm not sure if it will still work with humans. Any feedback is welcome, as always.
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Re: Atz' maps

Post by Doc Paterson » March 7th, 2011, 5:51 pm

Nice aesthetic on that one.

I don't know if you're looking for feedback, but if so:

I'd recommend making the terrain in the north and south a bit denser. We don't want to make it too easy for Loys. ;)
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