SX Development

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Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

SX Development

Post by Mabuse » July 19th, 2010, 7:46 pm

Hello,

i just spoke with Lester, and we agreed that new Stuff for SX should be included in one Upload.

Of course i agree with this, and want to encourage every SX Player/Designer to participate.
(you can participate by adding new (raw) maps for example, post ideas gfy and whatever you feel is worth to be said)

of course a wise man once told: "Too many cooks will spoil the meal" (or something like that ...)
and i think he is right about that.

im absolutely convinced that we will never agree on one shop/gameplay-version only.
there are different systems out there, and as far as i like the "stf shop" for example, for its many good features (undo things, sell stuff), i also think that my Armor System is better for example, also my Shop/gameplay now supports some sort of magic.
last but not least in my future System STATS wil be reduced a lot, to make it possible to support even long games, that were impossible to play in the past.

still we shoudl put all stuff in one pack, imo.
and every sx-developer is allowed to port whatever map what is out there to his system.

so we may have a cantar version supporting the stf shop and one cantar version supporting the SX/RPG system

so we will have many cooks, but also different meals ;)

maps, units, terrains, gfx, sfx, ideas, code
and all other stuff is free for share and use for everyone in the pack (in fact due to gpl its free for everybody to use, not onl yin theis pack, but i guess you know what i mean)

so i encourage every sxplayer and developer to participate.

of course the systems may be devloped more, and i think its more than likely that also stf/pkz-shop may reduce the game-stats in long (or short) time or get a magic system. also it possible that my (in following i call my shop "rpg shop" uses features from the stf/pkz shop

however, i think SX-Gameplay is fun since it combines basic RPG elements with fast and action gameplay.

in the past STORIES were neglected due to lack of time, but there may be also work on this.
help on this is appreaciated

new maps and new creeps to come.


the first step what i will do is to port my actual SX/RPG system to 1.8 and make the old Cantar version work with it. so you can see what things changed and tell me your opinions

(dont include the MOST BASIC SX/RPG upload into the COLLECTIVE PACK yet, because i would like to do that for myself, that means: if there is interest that my stuff goes into the COLLECTIVE, then i needd also a passphrase - of course it must be clear that while you edit the COLLECTIVE you must have the most actual version of it, and be very carefull not to affect stuff of other persons. the sx/Rpg stuff will use its own shop, since it has a different gamebalance)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

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Golbeeze
Posts: 439
Joined: November 13th, 2007, 3:18 am

Re: SX Development

Post by Golbeeze » July 19th, 2010, 8:05 pm

I agree, Mabuse. I have spoken with several other SX representatives about this and I think it is a good idea. I have handed over all my work to pkz and hopefully they will adapt my maps to the stf/pkz shop. I will probably no longer create any SX work. However, there is a chance that I will create maps for SX in the future. I have no desire to do the coding anymore, so someone will have to be ambitious enough to make it work, hehe.

Long live SX! :D
My_Own_Minion: get rid of the scientist, i can take the blind guy

Talkative: You're like the Wizard of Oz, but evil.

Add-ons in 1.8: Golbeeze's Maps, Golbeeze's RPGs, Evolving Era
Contributor to and Maintainer of Mercenaries

pkz
Posts: 30
Joined: April 14th, 2009, 1:11 am

Re: SX Development

Post by pkz » July 20th, 2010, 5:34 am

I'm in.

I was away from wesnoth for a while and when i upgraded to 1.8 and logged in there were no SX Maps. So i started updating a few to play. But that has spiraled into a bigger project than i had expected. It is great to hear we are all on the same page.

I would like the idea of Mabuse taking control of his maps again. I have not done a great imitation of them. The ports of his maps are not my best work :)
If you would like to coordinate better i have a git site i keep updated. You can find my latest scripts, or make additions.

I also agree with your opinion that SXC store allows too much armor. I have just re-written that macro so armor is now calculated as :
(130 - Total_Positive_Armor)/2 +100
gives the total upgrades in %
negative armor upgrades cost no slots (but still $)
The 130 is based on the total positive armor of a dwarf fighter. Thats considered a 'tough' unit. This way if the player unit is a weak unit with 0 positive armor, you would end up with 165% of total armor to buy. Where a dwarf would only have 100% to spend. The dwarf is still better armored in the end with a total positive armor of 230 (including regular unit armor). But now better balanced.(Ghost = 30%)
It is also a lower amount than the previous SXC macro, and can still be easily lowered more. Testing can decide later.

I am ambitious with working on the global macros. But there is a great amount of work to be done in all areas. SXC is a long ways from 1.0

I would like to get together a general SX macros file that allows simple efficient map-making. Optional items, alternate shops, additional capability are all good things. if we can all use the same global macros to accomplish this then we can avoid re-inventing the wheel. Let me know what you need for the SXC macros to become compatible with your map map-making needs.
better balance is a current focus.

http://github.com/pkz/SXC_Survival-Collection

we can coordinate script there. If you fork it you can make any changes/additions you want. accounts are free.

I would like this to become a group project.

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Araja
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Location: Bath, England

Re: SX Development

Post by Araja » July 20th, 2010, 10:39 am

Mabuse wrote:of course a wise man once told: "Too many cooks will spoil the meal" (or something like that ...)
I think it's the broth. :)

Anyway, as an SX player I guess I'm here mostly to see what's happening, but I would like to make a suggestion if possible: You say there are multiple types of SX, so could we somehow create a list of each type and their distinguishing features? That is, anything that isn't universal. I think that everyone knowing what they have to work with might be of help.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX Development

Post by Mabuse » July 20th, 2010, 2:50 pm

@Araja:
well, the maps i make will be marked as "SX/RPG MAPNAME".

the difference to the actual SX will be that SX/RPG features some options for different characters (4 classes, some abilities to pick at start, different ingame abilities for the classes, including also a magic system), but the main difference is that the combat stats will be greatly reduced. damage and strikes will have double cost, HP is 3,33 times more expensive. everything else remains same (except for the enemies stats of course) basically.

the gameplay wont be much affected (you still buy 2 times the 100 gold HP upgrade, some moves, some weapons, some terrain training, rest in damage and strikes) at start for example - except that you get less HP and dmage/strikes for your money.
the balance will be the same mostly.
(in fact it wasnt just like double prices of Damage/strieks and make HP more expensive to achieve that, but thats only a side note, of course only extensive testing will show how the gamebalance is affected in comparison to the old system)

(and of course abilities like regeneration will have more effect, since 8 HP are an equivalent of about 25 old HP, same goes for poision, which will hurt much more)

the big advantage is that you wil be able to play much longer and bigger maps.
an "old" 6000HP guy has in the new system about 1850 HP.

since SX works fast and stable until stats of about 2000HP (and with some slight seep reduction up to 3000) and their equivalent damage/strike numbers, more complex and longer levels (with many leaders and bosses) can be created.

in essence the gameplay will be the same, but it can very well be that players get intially confused by the low stats, and dont realize that they just have to click the same buttons anyway ;)

the main difference between the two systems will be the shop, which will have some differences and both may have their pros and cons, but in general SX/RPG will feature LOWER combat stats than the "classic" SX.


things like improved randomization for higher replayability value are independent from shop differences and task of the map designer



EDIT:
buaa... the pango markup really annys me. i have to edit all the files manually :)




@pkz:
i wil just try to get an example version of the SX/RPG running featuring the cantar map for now. thats my goal in the near future. still some work to do though.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX Development

Post by Mabuse » July 21st, 2010, 6:25 am

ok, test version is up

atm the ADDONPACK only features cantar map (slightly edited),

im interested in balance reports and how you liek the design.

im not sure if it is harder or easier now ;)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX Development

Post by Mabuse » July 21st, 2010, 10:48 pm

ok, "final" version of cantar is up now -
(i put the final in " because its an old map and i already have a slightly tweaked (from map-design point of view) version on my HD, i stil think i will never use it, since, i want to port other maps too and als make new ones of course ;))

- last but not least CANTAR served a good purpose as a short/medium difficulty, medium play length map. i like it. it is ok, when you think that it came out when 1.4 was born ;).


you have ideas about SX ? tell me about it.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX Development

Post by Mabuse » July 22nd, 2010, 2:38 am

ok, 1.2 is out.

fixed some vital errors.

first was that due to an AI Bug, if there is a single unit AI that is trapped somehow (i.e. has no path to the player) the complete side will freeze and refuse to move.

next error was that the variables that determine the strengh of the bosses werent set

another (minor) error was that i made a mistake using the clear variable commend which resulted in an ingame message

thx to lester and pkz (and mageman) for playtesting
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Lester
Posts: 15
Joined: March 26th, 2009, 11:55 am

Re: SX Development

Post by Lester » July 22nd, 2010, 3:05 pm

This is a great topic, concerning all matter in Survival Extreme "the new style".

As said, i would like to see one big mappack for all SX-maps, that can have two different playing style maps in it. It's a worthy addition for wesnoth by it's fast gameplay and new stuff to discover.

We can use this topic for all new idea's .. balancing, bugs, u name it ...
I think we basicly all have the same idea's on how to improve gameplay, we just need a plan "what to do", "who does it", and "the owner" for project, so one can update ADD-ON server.

pkz has allready a nice hosting site opened @ github (www in above posts), what can been used as BETA-tests, and for merging purposes.

A few things i have in mind for a long time since our formal project owner & coder -stf- 1 year ago, and his fantastic work he has done are mainly based on balancing the older maps. This shop u can buy so much more powerfull upgrades, the enemy deal sh@t on damage :P

So i suggest, we first should talk about: armory (what has been corrected allready by pkz) how to handle higher stats @ longer games, new stuff such as custom creeps, artwork..... ect...

And last but not least playtesting xD

I hope we shorty can start a new game, i had much fun yesterday.
tx Mabuse :D

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX Development

Post by Mabuse » July 22nd, 2010, 6:44 pm

Lester wrote: I hope we shorty can start a new game, i had much fun yesterday.
tx Mabuse :D
hey, of course, just a bit patience, im porting the other maps to the new rpg system.
wont take too long
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX Development

Post by Mabuse » July 23rd, 2010, 2:12 am

ok
3.1.1 version is out

it contains 3 maps now
CastleOfCantar, EvilDead and WizardOfWarII

While Cantar and Evil Dead are old but kinda Fun, the WizardII Map is the most actual.

due to the new RPG system Wizard of War shoud be perfectly playable now ;)
have fun playing the unplayable maps.

i also speed up the general map speed by disabling the animations for the FIRES.
so the maps itself wil play smoothly without turning the animations manually off (which most people dont do anyway ;))



i have two maps in progress -

a complete new one, and a rework of the Forbidden Moutains, which will be heavily edited and the gameplay and theme will change completely

but dont exspect them too early ;)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX Development

Post by Mabuse » July 23rd, 2010, 3:23 pm

btw, WizardOfWarII is unbeaten so far.
but also cantar and evildead wait to be beaten with the RPG System

the first guy/team who can win it on expierienced or expert gets a place in the hall of fame.

i just made some tests on Cantar with 5 Player Team on Expert and was kinda satisfied with the balance, i didnt play too far though

for playtesters:
------------------
all serious tests balance should be made with at least 4 Players and expierienced/expert difficulty
teamplay is under these circumstances a must of course. (this requies good/very good players)

of course its allowed that one perosn plays more than one hero if you cant find relyable players
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX Development

Post by Mabuse » July 23rd, 2010, 6:25 pm

btw, we still need a manual, especially for successful character development.

so how to set up a hero in SX RPG:
first off, basically, it works the same as in other SX versions. dontget confused with low HP and think you need more.


1.) buy terrain training.
terrain training will give you so much more moves then by getting pure movement points.
so make sure (unless you know it better) to get at least HILL + CAVE Movement, since often shops are hidden in caves and you dont want to spend ages to get there.


2.) buy weapons
think careful about what weapons you want to get. you really want to spend as less money as possible.

a)
since arcane sword and ice sword are quite expensive you may just get one of these, if any.

b)
ranged heroes will really want to get a melee-side-weapon from the shop, these are way more efective then the default ones (which you want to sell as soon you are at highest level)
the best melee side weapon (for its price) OVERALL is a TORCH

c)
then get your other weapons, it really depends on what you are up against, or what you already have.
some examples:

a dwarf fighter (blade/impact as default) may want to get a TORCH+Spear+net, or torch/ARCANE SWORD
a rider wants to get a TORCH and a MACE (i assume he wants to become a paladin, so he will have arcane later also)
a sylph may want to get a TORCH and a FIREBALL (it will have a strong arcane ranged later, the fireball is only level it quickly)
a thunderer wants a TORCH and an ENERGYWAVE+SLING (or a BOW)
mage gets TORCH and ENERGYWAVE+SLING (or a BOW)

of course exceptions make the rule, just make sure you wont spend so many money but still be prepared for most, if you know the map you may want to buy get something different. just follow these rules: not many expensive wepoans, instead better several cheap ones, ranged units always get a side weapon


3.) get enhancements

a) get moves, most important. get 7-8 moves, this will be ok for the beginning
b) get HP, buy +30 HP for 200 Gold. this is absolutely ok for the start.
c) get damage/strikes for the rest of your money. if it comes down to strikes 4 should be the minimum.




last word to the other options:


armor -
not needed at start, if you have a lot of moves like a cavalry for example, you may want to spend 30 or 60 gold on pierce to make the bad resistance to 0. do this only if you can save money elsewhere (like cav save money on moves since it doesnt need to buy any initially).

abilities -
not neede at start (unless you start with more than 800 gold). in case you have more than 800 gols you may want to spend some bucks on a useful ability. soulstealer will pay off after 25 kills for example.
but slso geting regeneration early may prevent some troubles.




Initial Gameplay:
--------------

- there should be alway 1-2 heroes who search for caves and explore them. caves always contain soem treasure which wil help a lot and isnesessary for success. just run along the mountains, and you wil find a cave sooner or later ;)
of course with more map expierience you can optimize this

- other heroes form a front line and will help each other to level. kill as many creeps as possible quickly to gain more money




The right difficulty:
---------------------

Noob:
---------
if you just want to fool around a bit, or if there are really noobs on the team.
remember that on my maps teamplay is important, but you cant rely on nooby since theri heroes wil be weak and they wont see obvious things like if other heroes are in danger nor they now how to save them. or they wil get killed for themselves. more money can compensate that. stil some basic team play is needed


Beginner:
-----------
the average setting when online playing. usually you wil have some beginners in the team on which you cant rely 100%. more money can make up for that. still team play is needed


xpierienced:
-----------
if you play with good people you really know (most noobs and beginnrs say that they have expierience, which isnt true though) you shoudl use this setting. it will require a lot of team play and perhaps a good team setup.


xpert:
-----
if you know the map very well and want to know if you can really beat it.
you may want to play this with few playres, maybe each one plays 2 or 3 heroes then
perfect team setup required



The right Team setup:
----------------------

Ranged Heroes come first, fighters last. this will allow the rangers to poke at tragets and the fighters can take them out then.

so if the team consist of sylph, dwarf fighter, mage, rider and thunderer.
then

player1: sylph (or mage or thunderer)
player2: mage (or sylph/thunderer)
player3: thunderer (or ...)
player4: rider (or dwarf)
player5: dwarf (or rider)

well the point is clear, imo, you cant win on expert if you dont follow these setup rules
also heroes with heal ability should be in the first slots (or better said heroes in the first slots are designated to get heal ability later IF they get it), so they can position themselves, and otehr players can end their turn next to them. on turn of the healer they wil get HP then.



i appreciate more manual info this will be included in the next version




other details to do:
- set color of player9 (ai) to black
- remove the coloring from the era names, in looks [censored] inth elobby
- make more maps


:)



ps: if pkz mails me the PBL file i will include the SX RPG version in the COLLECTION :)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Crowley
Posts: 5
Joined: February 21st, 2010, 4:20 pm

Re: SX Development

Post by Crowley » July 23rd, 2010, 7:47 pm

Hi.
The 0.14 version of SXCollective can't be loaded, with this error:
Error message
Error message
while the v0.12 worked fine.

Edit: versions divided by 10
Last edited by Crowley on July 24th, 2010, 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

pkz
Posts: 30
Joined: April 14th, 2009, 1:11 am

Re: SX Development

Post by pkz » July 23rd, 2010, 11:52 pm

G-Lo2 : Thanks for reporting the problem. I am aware of it, i tested, it worked for me, then updated the server with newest version. But now it seams its crashing for most pesple. At this point i am having trouble finding the problem, as i do not get it. It may be because i use linux, where most people may be using windows. I have been unalble to get a good error log, i have seen the screen you gave me (thanks), but it does not tell me much. what i need it the terminal output from the crash. But i have been told that the windows version of wesnoth does not show any output. Can any windows users tell me what they need to do to see terminal output from wesnoth? (i have not used windows in well over 5 years)

At the moment i regressed the macro file and updated the wesnoth-server to a new version, it *should* be working at the moment, but as i hvae just gotten back from work i have not had a chance to confirm this yet.

Last its actually not version 1.2 or 1.4 its 0.12 and 0.14 as you have noticed, i am a long way from 1.0 :)

tldr: I'm working on it. Thanks

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