New 1 vs 1 map with many villages

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Henrythe12th
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Joined: January 24th, 2010, 9:35 pm
Location: Altötting, Germany

New 1 vs 1 map with many villages

Post by Henrythe12th »

Hello,

I made a 1 vs 1 map with three fortified front-lines and quite a lot of water.
I am afraid the map isn't balanced very well. Please give me some advice how to
balance this map.
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Kleptomane
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Re: New 1 vs 1 map with many villages

Post by Kleptomane »

I've quickly looked over your map and I don't really have much to say about balance issues... Only perhaps that a drake player might be slightly disadvantaged by being forced to play a defensive game.

However, a greater point I want to touch on first is that I feel this map is perhaps TOO defensive. One of the greatest contributing factors to this is your use of bottlenecks in several spots on your map. From a gameplay perspective, they tend to encourage stalemates in those particular areas regardless of what factions players will choose since there is no point in attacking them.

Now, I am not suggesting you abandon the way you want your map to be played (by being defensive first). I am simply saying that you don't need to employ such tight bottlenecks everywhere to encourage a defense-first philosophy. For starters, you might consider replacing these bottlenecks with strong defensive structures/terrain.

After fixing these problem areas, I think I might have a bit more to say about specific balancing issues :wink:
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Henrythe12th
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Re: New 1 vs 1 map with many villages

Post by Henrythe12th »

Kleptomane wrote:Now, I am not suggesting you abandon the way you want your map to be played (by being defensive first). I am simply saying that you don't need to employ such tight bottlenecks everywhere to encourage a defense-first philosophy. For starters, you might consider replacing these bottlenecks with strong defensive structures/terrain.
Thank you for your help. I expanded some of the bottlenecks and used more defensive terrain instead.
Indeed, the idea of this map is to provide several lines of defense for the players. I hope this increases
the probability of getting leveled units.
Kleptomane wrote:After fixing these problem areas, I think I might have a bit more to say about specific balancing issues :wink:
I am looking forward to your tips.
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Kleptomane
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Re: New 1 vs 1 map with many villages

Post by Kleptomane »

I've taken a quick look at you map and I like the changes that you made, particularly on the right side. I feel it is a step in the right direction.

Now I don't really play a lot of 1v1 at all (I mostly do 2v2 and 3v3s) but I feel I can at least comment on some things that stand out:

The right side might be advantageous for drakes against certain factions because of the 3 hex gap of deep water. I am not 100% sure if this will be a problem every time, but try testing P1 as Drakes and P2 as Dwarves, Elves, or possibly UD. It might be a bit difficult for P2 to defend the villages on that side.

Another possible issue are vampire bats strike me as being a bit too useful here. Forces that could be used to defend an attack must now be used to stop village stealing behind the lines. Again, perhaps this strategy is that you want to happen, I don't know. But I still think it would be a good idea to test UD against the other factions to see if bats make things too difficult for the other factions.

As for other, more subtle balance problems, I would try testing the map against good human opponents and watching for issues that might arise in the game. I suspect that a lot of players might stick to the left side, which will help you balance that area, but make sure you do try out the center and right sides as well during your tests as the goal should be to balance those lanes as well so all the factions have a reasonably good chance on your map.
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Henrythe12th
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Re: New 1 vs 1 map with many villages

Post by Henrythe12th »

Hello Kleptomane,

meanwhile i changed the map a little bit. I have put the new picture of the map in this post. The map can now be downloaded from the add on server "Henrys maps". The Map is called "Northern Line".
Kleptomane wrote:IThe right side might be advantageous for drakes against certain factions because of the 3 hex gap of deep water. I am not 100% sure if this will be a problem every time, but try testing P1 as Drakes and P2 as Dwarves, Elves, or possibly UD. It might be a bit difficult for P2 to defend the villages on that side.


The village has been move a little bit more far away from the centerline. I hope this helps.
Kleptomane wrote:Another possible issue are vampire bats strike me as being a bit too useful here. Forces that could be used to defend an attack must now be used to stop village stealing behind the lines. Again, perhaps this strategy is that you want to happen, I don't know. But I still think it would be a good idea to test UD against the other factions to see if bats make things too difficult for the other factions.
I fell UD are not overpowered, the bats are quite weak and easy to kill. The general question is how to slow down the bats if necessary?
Kleptomane wrote:As for other, more subtle balance problems, I would try testing the map against good human opponents and watching for issues that might arise in the game. I suspect that a lot of players might stick to the left side, which will help you balance that area, but make sure you do try out the center and right sides as well during your tests as the goal should be to balance those lanes as well so all the factions have a reasonably good chance on your map.
You are right, i have to do many more test-matches. Anyhow, i appreciate your tips very much.
Maybe we can do a test-match together.
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Caphriel
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Re: New 1 vs 1 map with many villages

Post by Caphriel »

Bats slipping along the coast strike me as a huge problem on this map. You have a very deep backfield, so if you have to chase a bat or two around it, that's going to significantly weaken your frontline. This is especially true for the loyalists and rebels, for whom a merman fighter or hunter is not a great buy against the undead in most cases. Despite being "weak and easy to kill," a single scout or cavalryman is not likely to kill them in most cases, at which point the bat will heal and flee. If the bat keeps jumping out over the water, the defending player has to leave a more expensive, upkeep-costing unit behind to block it, or recruit a suboptimal water unit to chase it down. As an undead player, I would happily send two bats back that way to force the loyalist player to divert significant forces from his daytime attack, even if it meant losing them both. The answer, I think, might be to reduce the water to a thickness of 1 hex in places so that a unit on land can prevent a bat from moving past, or to close off the top and bottom-most coastal entrances, because it's bats playing from the corners that's likely to be the biggest problem.
Kleptomane
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Re: New 1 vs 1 map with many villages

Post by Kleptomane »

Yes, Caphriel's post nicely sums up my concerns regarding how bats seem too useful at the moment. I think that the proposed solution would work and also has the added benefit of correcting the drake problem on that side as well. Also note that bats can also be sent down the center lane as well, but I can't imagine it being too much of a problem for most match-ups...

If you wish for a test match, try to pm me and I will see what I can do :)
Caphriel
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Re: New 1 vs 1 map with many villages

Post by Caphriel »

The center doesn't seem like as much of a problem, because it's easy to keep bats from breaking through there, and you'll have units there anyway, most likely.
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Henrythe12th
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Re: New 1 vs 1 map with many villages

Post by Henrythe12th »

Caphriel wrote:The answer, I think, might be to reduce the water to a thickness of 1 hex in places so that a unit on land can prevent a bat from moving past, or to close off the top and bottom-most coastal entrances, because it's bats playing from the corners that's likely to be the biggest problem.
Good idea, I reduced the water thickness to 1 hex and put a water castle there.

It turned out, that the map does not offer enough space for offensive movements. I removed some impassable terrain and added some plain terrain as well as two more villages (altogether now 32 :-)). In order avoid boring village collecting I added 11 starting villages for P1 and 12 for P2.

I made a 2 vs 2 version of this map as well. Due to the statements of some testers it's a good idea to make a 4P version of this map. Thank you Dauntless, khiM, Kleptomane, tekelili and all the others ... :D
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ezysquire
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Re: New 1 vs 1 map with many villages

Post by ezysquire »

That's a lot of villages for two players. Would the game ever end?
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Henrythe12th
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Re: New 1 vs 1 map with many villages

Post by Henrythe12th »

ezysquire wrote:That's a lot of villages for two players. Would the game ever end?
Well, I have to check that ... the intension of intention of this map was to facilitate big and long lasting battles. The question is, does the map allow thrilling battles ? Of course I can reduce the number of villages ... but will it be an improvement?
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