Kleptomane's Experimental MP Map Pack!

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Kleptomane
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Joined: December 18th, 2009, 12:07 am

Kleptomane's Experimental MP Map Pack!

Post by Kleptomane »

So, I have enough maps and ideas for future maps now that I feel a map pack would make sense. When a map reaches a certain quality and seem to be somewhat playable, I will add it to the map pack. My hope is that I will be able to balance a good portion of these over time, so please be sure to check for updates, which will occasionally have new map content as well...

(Version: 0.3)

Current Maps:

Skirmish/Desert Skirmish
Players: 4
Size: 18x20
Tileset: Grass/Desert

Status:
- Balance for both variations is unconfirmed, though it's size leads me to believe that it is not.
- Even so, it seems to be somewhat playable...
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
River Crossing

Players: 4
Size: 27x29
Tile set: Grass

Status:
- Balance of the new version unconfirmed... Recommended for play-testing.
Spoiler:
Sunken Sanctuary
Players: 4
Size: 27x29
Tile set: Cave

Status:
- Very early version... Recommended for play-testing only.
Spoiler:
Upcoming Maps:

4p - Cold Snap
Size: Small / Tile set: Winter

4p - Inner Sanctum
Size: Medium / Tile set: Cave

Comments and feedback regarding any ideas, balance problems, and game play issues would be appreciated and will help me immensely to improve the overall quality of this map pack for everyone :)

Thanks!

Karu/Kleptomane
Last edited by Kleptomane on February 22nd, 2010, 1:56 am, edited 24 times in total.
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Henrythe12th
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Re: 4p - River Crossing 2v2 MP Map

Post by Henrythe12th »

Kleptomane wrote:Comments and feedback regarding balance, game play issues, and overall fun would be appreciated and will help me immensely to improve the quality of this map for everyone :)
Imo, you should add more mountains. I think dwarfs are inferior on this map.
Kleptomane
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Re: 4p - River Crossing 2v2 MP Map

Post by Kleptomane »

Thanks for you post. I've done some tests on this, but it seems that dwarves can hold their own pretty well, although they do rely quite a bit on outlaw units (thieves, poachers, etc). I've made a few changes to help them out, but I'm worried about giving them too much because it might affect the elves adversely if I'm not careful. In any case, I hope the improvements help a bit.

The faction I found most troubling though were the undead, who seemed to get mashed by the lawful factions in pretty much every test case. I've made some changes to attempt to reduce this gap, but I'm still worried that they are still underpowered here.

Another problem I have found is that it is pretty hard to go on offensive here without taking a pretty big risk :hmm: Anyone have any ideas why this might be?
Last edited by Kleptomane on February 19th, 2010, 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DEATH_is_undead
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Re: 4p - River Crossing 2v2 MP Map

Post by DEATH_is_undead »

Too many Choke Points. One scout can see all the points of access on the map.
3P MP Scenario - Great Dwarves Escape
The best way to learn is to follow. In order to learn WML, you have to follow other's work, and check their codes.
ezysquire
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Re: 4p - River Crossing 2v2 MP Map

Post by ezysquire »

A map with some potential sure.

I think the problem for undead is a problem shared by other faction combinations - but is more an issue to do with lawful advantage than undead disadvantage.

It strikes me at first glance as a game of two isolated 1v1 matches. This is based on the long diagonal distances on the map and the divisive terrain of the water, which further extends the diagonal distance. This works not so much as a disadvantage to Undead, and dorf as was earlier indicated in the thread, but as an advantage for fast lawful horses and drakes. And lets not forget how much horses and drakes love fighting undeads at day to compound the issue.

In short: those long diagonals mean lawful faction players can assist their team mate more easily.

BUT, I think the greater issue is to do with the speed of collapse a player may suffer here. The spacing of the villages and their exposed nature means that the side with the most decisive rush first could deal a match winning blow very early. A good attack could potentially take three.. perhaps even four villages in one sequence. This amounts to 50% or more of the total income - in other words: a mighty blow.

Take the vintage Clash Map as an exmaple of a great 2v2. A major assault on a full favoured ToD cycle might reap two villages (three vs a noob :roll: ) and this is less than half the player's share of villages.

A major part of 2v2 is the ability to fight back. There are two main ways this can occur: through aid from a team mate or through economy. In this map, both of those factors are diminished making the come back tricky.

Something which may aid the cause of the map would be to have a fixed starting ToD of dawn. I realise most devs dislike this view, but reality is a first push from lawful is typically stronger than a first push from chaotic owing to speed difference of power units and a shortage of numbers for northie.

So, I guess to address the issues i have raised the best fixes may be to reduce the number of vertical hexes (make a narrower river) and to slightly realign the villages so that there are more safe ones than immediately contentious ones.

Of course all of this is easy for me to say - yet I have never played the map, so I cannot be too sure of my comments.
I hope to trial it some time with you klepto and then maybe i have a better idea. :D
Kleptomane
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Re: 4p - River Crossing 2v2 MP Map

Post by Kleptomane »

Yes, I am not completely happy with the way most River Crossing games play out at the moment and I am mulling over how to fix this...
ezysquire wrote: In short: those long diagonals mean lawful faction players can assist their team mate more easily.
I do see some truth in your observation. In fact, another player whose opinion I also trust said something similar. It's actually kind of ironic because I think one of the reasons for the long diagonals is the exposed villages of P1 and P2 along the river, which I introduced as a centerpiece to the map because I felt it would help INCREASE team play. But, it doesn't seem to have the intended effect :? Now that I think of it, games of River Crossing seem to develop a bit like Path of Daggers... Certainly I agree that reducing the vertical hexes might help in this regard.
ezysquire wrote: BUT, I think the greater issue is to do with the speed of collapse a player may suffer here. The spacing of the villages and their exposed nature means that the side with the most decisive rush first could deal a match winning blow very early. A good attack could potentially take three.. perhaps even four villages in one sequence. This amounts to 50% or more of the total income - in other words: a mighty blow.

Take the vintage Clash Map as an exmaple of a great 2v2. A major assault on a full favoured ToD cycle might reap two villages (three vs a noob :roll: ) and this is less than half the player's share of villages.

A major part of 2v2 is the ability to fight back. There are two main ways this can occur: through aid from a team mate or through economy. In this map, both of those factors are diminished making the come back tricky.
I agree with this... placing villages (and terrain) is tricky business. But, for some reason, I feel I do not have enough horizontal hexes to work with to allow for a decent retreat. Maybe I am just imagining it?

Also, I think one of the reasons for the relatively wide-open spaces and exposed forward villages is because I am quite afraid of the games becoming too defensive for my liking. Perhaps I am taking this too far in the other direction?

Thanks for the comments ezy. Looking forward to testing this with you on the server :)

Edit: Just an update on the progress of the map pack... Sunken Sanctuary is progressing quite well and I expect to have an early version ready for testing soon, which I hope will include some fixes to River Crossing that are currently being discussed here.
Tonepoet
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Re: Kleptomane's Experimental MP Map Pack!

Post by Tonepoet »

I've priorly mentioned to ya that every default map plays longer rather than wider, if there are any dimensional discrepancies. This doesn't necessarily mean you don't have enough horizontal hexes though. I just think you have too many vertical ones. I see a tiny bit of room for map compression in many spots of the map. If you'd like, I think I could work something out for each side's central terrain clump and the river itself rather easily by reducing redundant vertical terrain. If not, this might be enough of a hint for you to work it out yourself. 8)
Htonsew Rof Elttab Eht is just too cool for school. I've got no words to describe it. Have any of you guys tried it? ;-)
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Rigor
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Re: Kleptomane's Experimental MP Map Pack!

Post by Rigor »

topic suscribed :)

where are the replays :mrgreen:
Radament
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Re: Kleptomane's Experimental MP Map Pack!

Post by Radament »

Here's a replay for River Crossing.

Rigor and Aragorn orc it up against my rebels and Joni's undead, and get clubbed :P

Interesting map, interesting match, but might be too static and in favor of the defender.
4p_-_River_Crossing-Auto-Save13.gz
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DEATH_is_undead
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Re: Kleptomane's Experimental MP Map Pack!

Post by DEATH_is_undead »

Whats the point of P5 in Sunken Sanctuary?
3P MP Scenario - Great Dwarves Escape
The best way to learn is to follow. In order to learn WML, you have to follow other's work, and check their codes.
Kleptomane
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Re: Kleptomane's Experimental MP Map Pack!

Post by Kleptomane »

Thanks for the replays guys :) Appreciate it!

P5 is a dummy side for statues similar to Sullia Ruins, etc.
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Rigor
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Re: Kleptomane's Experimental MP Map Pack!

Post by Rigor »

here :)
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4p_-_River_Crossing_Wiederholung_anzeigen.gz
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dipseydoodle
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Re: Kleptomane's Experimental MP Map Pack!

Post by dipseydoodle »

Very nice map... I'm guessing the map you where going to make for me is like the dessert skirmish?
- Dipsey
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artisticdude
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Re: Kleptomane's Experimental MP Map Pack!

Post by artisticdude »

dipseydoodle wrote:I'm guessing the map you where going to make for me is like the dessert skirmish?
Actually, I don't think he had cake in mind...

(Sorry, I couldn't resist that. :P )
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dipseydoodle
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Re: Kleptomane's Experimental MP Map Pack!

Post by dipseydoodle »

Hm.
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