Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

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tekelili
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Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

Post by tekelili »

I dont understand why anyone have complained about this before, or, if anyone did, why this wasnt changed. But for me is pretty clear: in a 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 game, slow effect dissapear at the end of the slowed unit controler turn. So in a clash game with 1-2-2-1 turn order, you better get elves in slot 2 or 4 or you are disavantaged. If you slow from slot 1 or 3, your team mate wont never be able to attack a slowed unit, as slow effect on enemy units would have removed always at the end of enemy turn. So, as example, if all players chose random factions and they get: 1-elves, 2-elves, 3-darves, 4-darves, game would be unbalnced, giving team 2 a nice adventage in the use of their shamans.

Solution: I propose slow effect dissapear at the begining of the player that used the slow attack turn.


...This only solves half of problem:
Shamans would keep being unbalanced in a game like example above, even with solution proposed. Player 2 could slow a front line enemy unit, and player 3 could easyly hit that unit taken adventage of reduced retaliation. But team 1 cant do it so easy, if player 1 slow a enemy unit, now the team 2 have 2 turns to retreat that unit and shield it with other units, so player 4 couldnt hit it while slowed so easy, even with my first solution working...

So, propose a second solution (and I know all devs will laught at me after read it) :P

In a team game, a player that recruit a unit with slow attack, should have the option of give control of that unit to a team mate just in that moment. That way, team could have slow working for them as it should do.
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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zookeeper
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Re: Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

Post by zookeeper »

I agree that it can be pretty confusing in those kind of cases, but if I recall correctly, there actually was some kind of a reason for the current way.
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tekelili
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Re: Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

Post by tekelili »

If the problem cant be solved due to very complicated recode work or runtime issues, then I cant say anymore, let keep it as it is just now... But perhaps a solution to avoid unbalanced matchs should be implemented. I propose a random factions tool add on that dont generate elves in unbalanced slots. Yes, this is still complicated, as must be fixed for every different turn order, but I just dont want start a game knowing that one team has a clear adventage and it is an unbalanced match (man, if their shaman can combo with ulf and mine not I just become nuts :x )
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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Sangel
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Re: Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

Post by Sangel »

The obvious solution would be to have "slow" removed at the beginning of the next turn of the player who applied it. But would this cause more balancing issues than it solves?
"Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
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tekelili
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Re: Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

Post by tekelili »

Sangel wrote:The obvious solution would be to have "slow" removed at the beginning of the next turn of the player who applied it. But would this cause more balancing issues than it solves?
I cant see the new balancing issues this solution would add... Can you name them? (and I am sorry if they are too obvious, I just cant find out them just now...) :oops:
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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Sangel
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Re: Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

Post by Sangel »

tekelili wrote:
Sangel wrote:The obvious solution would be to have "slow" removed at the beginning of the next turn of the player who applied it. But would this cause more balancing issues than it solves?
I cant see the new balancing issues this solution would add... Can you name them? (and I am sorry if they are too obvious, I just cant find out them just now...) :oops:
To be honest, I can't see any balancing issues from making this change either. However, I'm no balancing expert. The Multiplayer Developers are the ones who are best placed to consider the possible implications of this decision, which would presumably have a (small) impact on player-order balance.
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Velensk
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Re: Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

Post by Velensk »

I am in the same boat as Sangel
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silene
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Re: Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

Post by silene »

zookeeper wrote:I agree that it can be pretty confusing in those kind of cases, but if I recall correctly, there actually was some kind of a reason for the current way.
From a coding point of view, handling slow this way was much simpler. I don't think anybody would complain if someone were to submit a patch that fixes it.
UngeheuerLich
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Re: Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

Post by UngeheuerLich »

There was a change in healing to make it work better in team multiplayer.

The proposed change has no effect on 1 vs 1 balance, as end of enemy turn and beginning of your turn are essentially the same. I would say it is even more to the KISS principle, since healing occurs at the beginning of a turn usually.

I also bet that coding of this change is very simple. So thumbs up!

edit: thumps down to handing units to team player. This would not be KISS.
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tekelili
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Re: Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

Post by tekelili »

UngeheuerLich wrote:
edit: thumps down to handing units to team player. This would not be KISS.
I like KISS, and can understand it as a reason to no implement this bizarre change. But I just want explain my point of view. I am not a usual 1v1 player. I am a multifaction player. Note it, I didnt say team player. I play a lot of team games, but what I more enjoy is not the team aspect of the game, is the multifaction factor. I love the threat that coordinate multiple team turns add to the game, and love the factions mix that can be done to help in cover faction weaks. But if you ask me was is my most loved wesnoth kind of game, it is a clash game where I control my 2 team sides and just 1 oponent control his 2 ones. Because for me, team games are the really 1v1 ones (1 team vs 1 team). Even if I am not controling all my team units and just 1 faction, all my team units are MY units in my mind. From this point of view, I think my solution is not so anti KISS. but yea, quite bizarre
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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Boucman
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Re: Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

Post by Boucman »

if we do that change, each unit needs to remember who caused the slow, currently slow is just a status

what if a unit slowed by team A is slowed again by team B ?

if we go with the "give unit to teammate" what happens if a unit levels up into a unit with slow ? who would pay the upkeep ? who would even pay the original unit's cost ?

previous version of slow would remove one strike instead of halving damage, which was not that good because it was too efficient on some units (trolls) and much less on others.

no, this is not trivial to code, and i'm not sure it's worth the change
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Yoyobuae
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Re: Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

Post by Yoyobuae »

There is another difference in the case of magical attacks against shamans.

All of the lv1 accessible magical attacks are ranged. The best way to deal with a high defense shaman is using magical (and to a lesser extend marksman) attacks against her. Right now it is not that bad, as there is good a chance of not being slowed at all or at least get one hit before being slowed. And when that player ends turn the slow effect disappears (allowing the mage unit to retaliate fully unless slowed again).

But with the slow effect lasting until the start of the enemy's turn, would mean that for some positions on team games these tactic would be detrimental. For example on a 1221, when a ranged unit of the first or third player attacks a shaman of the third or first, respectively, the second or fourth player can sneak in a ranged attack against that slowed ranged units (before slow effect disappears).

My opinion, if you're so worried about it, don't choose random. But that ain't gonna happen, is it?

EDIT: Maybe another option would be to be able to trade spots with team mate before game starts (but after the random'ed faction is revealed).
EDIT2: Revealed to team mates only that is
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tekelili
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Re: Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

Post by tekelili »

Yoyobuae wrote:There is another difference in the case of magical attacks against shamans.

All of the lv1 accessible magical attacks are ranged. The best way to deal with a high defense shaman is using magical (and to a lesser extend marksman) attacks against her. Right now it is not that bad, as there is good a chance of not being slowed at all or at least get one hit before being slowed. And when that player ends turn the slow effect disappears (allowing the mage unit to retaliate fully unless slowed again).

But with the slow effect lasting until the start of the enemy's turn, would mean that for some positions on team games these tactic would be detrimental. For example on a 1221, when a ranged unit of the first or third player attacks a shaman of the third or first, respectively, the second or fourth player can sneak in a ranged attack against that slowed ranged units (before slow effect disappears).

My opinion, if you're so worried about it, don't choose random. But that ain't gonna happen, is it?

EDIT: Maybe another option would be to be able to trade spots with team mate before game starts (but after the random'ed faction is revealed).
You are right. Slow used as defense attack is a problem in wich I hadn t thought. I propose slow is always a counter on unit being slowed. when you slow attacking, this counter is equal to the number of players in game. When you slow in defense, this counter is always 1 (if it wasnt greater than 0 at current tunr). Each player turn this counter is decreased in 1. Slow effect is removed when counter reach to 0. If a second team player slow an already slowed unit, no problem, just set the counter value as usual and it would be removed at the begining of current player slowing turn.
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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tekelili
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Re: Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

Post by tekelili »

Boucman wrote:
if we go with the "give unit to teammate" what happens if a unit levels up into a unit with slow ? who would pay the upkeep ? who would even pay the original unit's cost ?
What I proposed is you can give control to a mate only in the very just moment of recruit it. You wont have any more chances of do it in future or reverse control in anyway. The gold is payed for recruiting player and this has no effect on units that wins slow after lvl (I think this is YES a minor balance issue).
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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zookeeper
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Re: Slow is working in a very unbalanced way in team games

Post by zookeeper »

There's absolutely no point in derailing an otherwise potentially sensible thread with something about moving control of units to another side. :annoyed: Please.
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