Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

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tsr
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Re: Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

Post by tsr » January 2nd, 2010, 8:33 pm

Velensk wrote:I know that I would prefer if you posted your feedback for his map (and all others including mine) here.
QFT and please on all aspects of the judging criterias.

/tsr

Velensk
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Re: Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

Post by Velensk » January 2nd, 2010, 10:24 pm

Speaking of which this is the latest version of my map.
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CrecentLake.zip
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"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Boucman
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Re: Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

Post by Boucman » January 2nd, 2010, 10:43 pm

yes please, i'm sure there will be all sorts of enlighting comments for all map makers, not just the ones qualified for second round

it would be cool if you reposted images of the map when commenting so we can remember which map is which and what version was commented on
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Doc Paterson
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Re: Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

Post by Doc Paterson » January 3rd, 2010, 1:39 am

Boucman wrote:yes please, i'm sure there will be all sorts of enlighting comments for all map makers, not just the ones qualified for second round

it would be cool if you reposted images of the map when commenting so we can remember which map is which and what version was commented on
We're talking about roughly 26 maps here. There's no chance I'd have the time or will to do what you're describing with one of them, much less a number of them. :P

People who really want to know what map is being talked about need only look back through this very thread. Assume we're talking about the newest version.

I've gotten delayed again, but TSR, I'll try to give you some feedback as soon as I can.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
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tsr
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Re: Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

Post by tsr » January 3rd, 2010, 8:45 am

Doc Paterson wrote:
Boucman wrote:yes please, i'm sure there will be all sorts of enlighting comments for all map makers, not just the ones qualified for second round

it would be cool if you reposted images of the map when commenting so we can remember which map is which and what version was commented on
We're talking about roughly 26 maps here. There's no chance I'd have the time or will to do what you're describing with one of them, much less a number of them. :P

People who really want to know what map is being talked about need only look back through this very thread. Assume we're talking about the newest version.
Or someone with mod-powers can assist you and attach an image in your post afterwards...
Doc Paterson wrote: I've gotten delayed again, but TSR, I'll try to give you some feedback as soon as I can.
Np, do it when you have time, no hurry.

/tsr

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Re: Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

Post by Doc Paterson » January 5th, 2010, 7:02 pm

tsr wrote: Ok, so I have had this idea for a fairly long time and now seemed to be a good time to post it.

The map is called "Two is a crowd" - cause you only need two sides to have a conflict

There are a few key concepts in this map that brake some of the unofficial "rules" of map-making around here. I hope that you will be able to see past that and just try it first (I havent included a replay since I cant really host games due to tremendous lag/random dc:s).

- all terrain (except impassable mountains, river-ford and deep water) is in pairs (this isnt really important per se but it is for two terrains: villages and keeps. For villages to create healing areas and make it harder to steal them and for keeps (or actually castle-hexes connected to keeps) to lower the amount of unit-spamming and gold-hoarding.
- all villages are placed in the back of the map, because I have never really liked the snowballing effect of loosing a village, imho it goes too quickly if one side manages to really take a village, not only for economical reasons but also for positional ones.
- you dont start in a keep but have to choose which one to go to (I am not entirely pleased with the distribution of them yet, but I need to see some human vs. human replays before I can change it).
- the map is filled with river-ford and rubble (over ford) to allow extensive use of fishies.
- player 2 starts on an owned village while player 1 doesnt.
Image
Okay, here we go. When I rated this map, I gave it-

1) Creativity/Originality: 8
2) Balance: 5.5
3) Appearance: 6.5
4) Fun factor: 6

You definitely succeeded in making a map that was as you said “outside the box.” I personally liked this map more than the other judges did, in part because this sort of aesthetic appeals to me, and strikes me as very artistically creative. In putting all of the villages far behind where you want to main fronts to be though, I think you create a situation where a defensively minded player could defeat an attacker about 90 percent of the time. They need only recruit a scout to keep an eye on the enemy leader, so that their leader can mirror his movements from their side of the map, allowing them to outpower an attempt to punch through with their leader (assuming that the attacker wants to punch through and take a keep with their leader, allowing them a foothold on the other side). The fact that river ford is practically everywhere magnifies the stalemating issue all the more when we’re talking about two factions with water units- Every unit forming a line can be on 60 defense….The attacker just will not have enough hexes to break through it successfully. Even if this aspect of the map were balanced, you’re still setting yourself up for massively tedious games with defensive players who will spam water units.

I’m guessing that your thought with the oasis hexes was to allow an attacker to “perch”/heal near enemy lines, filling a role similar to that played by villages near to battle fronts on other 1v1s, but they are much more difficult to use. A majority of units are taking a movement penalty to get inside (4 from most angles, 2 through hill/shroom/forest, 2 for the sand of the oasis itself), and even when they are on the hex, they are terribly vulnerable (30 defense for most). Other units will have to guard it very carefully as a result….That whole situation again, to me, favors a somewhat passive, counterattack-oriented defense, which for many players, isn’t very fun.

Another thing is that Knalgans seem particularly bad here- They really do need at least a few mountains to make Dwarves worthwhile.

There’s probably more to say, but that’s the gist of what went through my mind when I was judging it. Again, I do like it, and I think you should continue to work on it.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
-Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme

Velensk
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Re: Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

Post by Velensk » January 6th, 2010, 2:00 am

That was a very nice breakdown. If you could do that for my map then that would be appreciated (your last comment was nice but not especially useful).
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

tsr
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Re: Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

Post by tsr » January 6th, 2010, 7:53 am

Thanks for your reply and detailed critique Doc. I will take it into consideration when developing the map further.

/tsr

ps. I will also paste your post into the maps-thread.

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Re: Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

Post by Boucman » January 6th, 2010, 6:22 pm

Doc, i edited your message to include the screenshot, if it's fine with you i'll do that to further posts comenting maps
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Quetzalcoatl
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Re: Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

Post by Quetzalcoatl » January 6th, 2010, 6:38 pm

That would be so awesome if i would also get any feedback on my map :)
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F8 Binds...
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Re: Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

Post by F8 Binds... » January 8th, 2010, 2:41 pm

---Pokes Doc---

Actually, I don't mind if I get my critique last. :wink:
Proud creator of 4p- Underworld. Fascinated by Multiplayer design and balance.
I am the lone revenant of the n3t clan.

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tekelili
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Re: Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

Post by tekelili » January 8th, 2010, 10:06 pm

Hi, I just decided let my brain rest from playtesting and just have fun playing others maps for a few days :shock:
But I have been working in a flavour touch for my map and would like judges tell me if it helps map or just doesnt worth add it.

NOW VOLCANO BECOMES ACTIVE :twisted: I have attached a replay just to show lava flow and timing (eruption starts at turn 10) I would like all new lava hexes had the unpassible attribute to not unbalance for drakes (wich has sense because it´s not only raining fire there, there is also a huge concentration of poison gas in the air). I also would like label the next turn lava hexes for players, as I want any unit that stand there become dead when terrain is turned into lava. But I have no idea yet how to code that :? I hope improve my knowledge of WML soon.

Imapact in gameplay and right turn to trigger eruption have been not tested, but I would like a first feedback before more work is invested :)
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6p_-_LavaFlow_Replay.gz
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Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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Doc Paterson
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Re: Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

Post by Doc Paterson » January 8th, 2010, 10:29 pm

Quetzalcoatl, F8 and Velensk: I will get to your maps soon. I will quickly say that I looked over the newest version of Crescent Lake and liked it a real lot. Details to follow. ;)
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
-Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme

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Re: Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

Post by dartboy » January 8th, 2010, 11:10 pm

I'm not a judge, just a player. tekelili: I like the idea of erupting lava, however a player will need to know which hexs will become lava before they turn into lava, as otherwise your units could get killed without you knowing... unless the exact hexs an eruption moves into is always random (?) -- a random distruibution of lava would actually be interesting; so long as a player knew that every existing lava hex can never expand more than 1-hex per turn. The turn before eruption should also have some visual indicator... perhaps the central hex changes from an "empty chasm" to a "lava filled on"? I would also add into the description of the map, all of the rules for the lava before a game starts, so that both players are aware of this special effect. The question then is though: can lava enter all types of terrain, including villages? and what happens if a village is surrounded by lava (or can this even happen?)?

Another idea. to add even more strategy, would be to have some of the previously-lava filled hexs, to "dry up" and become cave [or cave-hills] hexs... that way passages that are clear will periodically appear within the lava, so that units that become surrounded can eventually get out, and also so that the lava eventually doesn't just increase the impassable center, but actually provides "through the middle" passages for a player to exploit, in later turns... as otherwise the game will just become this odd "edge skirt" affair. Slow factions/units would suffer greatly for it...

Otherwise, I can see some balance issues in the way the map is laid out, but I'll let the actual judges make those comments...
;-)

Best,

Seb

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tekelili
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Re: Winter 2009 - Map Making Contest! UPDATED

Post by tekelili » January 9th, 2010, 4:59 am

dartboy wrote:I'm not a judge, just a player. tekelili: I like the idea of erupting lava, however a player will need to know which hexs will become lava before they turn into lava, as otherwise your units could get killed without you knowing... unless the exact hexs an eruption moves into is always random (?) -- a random distruibution of lava would actually be interesting; so long as a player knew that every existing lava hex can never expand more than 1-hex per turn. The turn before eruption should also have some visual indicator... perhaps the central hex changes from an "empty chasm" to a "lava filled on"? I would also add into the description of the map, all of the rules for the lava before a game starts, so that both players are aware of this special effect. The question then is though: can lava enter all types of terrain, including villages? and what happens if a village is surrounded by lava (or can this even happen?)?

Another idea. to add even more strategy, would be to have some of the previously-lava filled hexs, to "dry up" and become cave [or cave-hills] hexs... that way passages that are clear will periodically appear within the lava, so that units that become surrounded can eventually get out, and also so that the lava eventually doesn't just increase the impassable center, but actually provides "through the middle" passages for a player to exploit, in later turns... as otherwise the game will just become this odd "edge skirt" affair. Slow factions/units would suffer greatly for it...

Otherwise, I can see some balance issues in the way the map is laid out, but I'll let the actual judges make those comments...
;-)

Best,

Seb
Ty for your feedback. I think I am agree with all you said, in fact some issues like label hexes before lava reach them was mentioned in my post. And now I realize that didnt explained it but that lava becomes cold and start to disapear was my intention from beggining. I just coded the until the farthest point of eruption, in the next turns the map start going back to previous stage, but didnt want do that code work already before know I am going somewhere. Of course, as soon as my wml knoledge improves, I will add sound effects and anything that helps spirit of map. Aesthetic was always a very important issue for me when this map born.

EDIT: and.. no, lava flow is not random, it is always the same for every game.
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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