Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

[Cackfiend]

Knowing that your opponent is Drakish could lead you to recruit differently. For example, most Northerner players wouldn't recuit assassins on the first turn (until they know the opponent is not Undead). Maybe you could play with fog off to even things up.

it doesnt matter. Even when i random drake vs an orc on these small maps it still happens. Look at the replay i posted... i randomed drakes and got the lv 2 drake fighter s a leader and still got rolled

any smart orc recruit is grunts, wolves, an assn or an archer... and these all decimate drakes during the first night

[Sorrow]

Some of those points raised regarding orc vs drake balance are incredibly wrong. Especially the one about threatening villages and having a defensive line at the same time, is ridiculous. Grabbing an enemy village with any of your units is a huge, pointless sacrifice. A defensive line is going to break, almost no matter what units the drake makes. If enough grunts can reach the line (map dependent) it will break with average luck. If he retreats and orc gets more than 1 village he is equally screwed, cant attack next day and orc has 2 more grunts next night time than he normally would.


I think balance tests should be played on the new maps, I have not seen how drake as p2 performs with that yet and am very curious.

[Mystery]

Edit: Forgot to read the rest of the topic up to this point so I still wanna respond to more stuff.

As far as the Glider is concerned, there's no necessity to buff it because it's already perfectly usable. The fact it isn't a very good unit in its own right is irrelevant. The Drakes are considered balanced -- even "strongest" judging by some of the posts in here -- and the Glider has its use in the faction. There's some other pretty sub-par units out there as well: Wolf Rider, Poacher, Heavy Infantrymen. Even Bowmen, though they are not a bad unit in their own right, see minimal use simply because Spearmen are flat-out better in most circumstances. If anything, I'd argue HI is the unit most in need of a buff and even they have a niche use in their faction.

In fewer words, all units are not created equal. What's important is that the factions as a whole are balanced against each other, not that individual units within a faction are equally useful. The Glider has its niche in the Drakes faction, it doesn't need buffed.

"Except you can't mass goblins & rush. Either you're massing gobbos OR you're rushing."

"If so, then level 0 units are of no use for that very important first push during the first night against weakened lawful factions. Failure to take advantage of that will just make it far easier for said lawful factions pushing you back during the following day."

My point was addressed to the faulty (or at least too vague) assumption that a Northerners player is "racing with time" since Drakes have an advantage with a fully developed army. That's obviously untrue since Northerners (and Undead) never finish developing their army. Not only does the Drakes player need to survive the initial push, they need to survive well enough (and with enough Drake units) to make headway during their favored ToD. It's not going to be as simple as "survive the initial rush and win" in most cases, that's all I'm saying.

Don't discount an early recruit of Level 0 units. Depending on map size and village layout (i.e. map-dependent), an initial recruit with a Lv0 unit or two allows you to gain income on the first turn when you only have that one village. Undead usually have to do it anyway because their scout unit is one of their level zeros. :/ As far as Goblins are concerned, their damage output is as respectable as any Lv1 unit and a first-turn recruit can easily make it to the front line as the first night falls. They're also cheap blocking fodder for your stronger, more expensive standard units and deny XP to the enemy since they give 0 XP for combat (and only 4 XP for a kill).

...if you leave a clasher to protect your foward village it will get swarmed and die almost every time (excluding insane luck of course)

This is all good theory. But its 100% apparent that you have never actually practiced this match up. When orcs are P1 you simply do not have enough time to form a defensive line as the first turn you even have your forward village the orc can then attack and surround that unit

You know what you should do, then? Pull back to form a defensive line and let them have the village (for now). Don't just leave a Clasher to rush there by itself and let it be swarmed, the likely chance of losing it is worth more than the gold you lose not immediately capturing your forward village. With a real ZoC/defense set up behind the village, of which there are multiple ways to do it, you'll survive much better until daybreak when they'll be forced to give your village back (or get slaughtered even worse than they do to you at night).

Of course, depending on the split of forces (i.e. how big they rush one side), you could very well just push through on the opposite side and simply trade territory for the time being.

[Cackfiend]

...if you leave a clasher to protect your foward village it will get swarmed and die almost every time (excluding insane luck of course)

This is all good theory. But its 100% apparent that you have never actually practiced this match up. When orcs are P1 you simply do not have enough time to form a defensive line as the first turn you even have your forward village the orc can then attack and surround that unit

You know what you should do, then? Pull back to form a defensive line and let them have the village (for now). Don't just leave a Clasher to rush there by itself and let it be swarmed, the likely chance of losing it is worth more than the gold you lose not immediately capturing your forward village. With a real ZoC/defense set up behind the village, of which there are multiple ways to do it, you'll survive much better until daybreak when they'll be forced to give your village back (or get slaughtered even worse than they do to you at night).

Of course, depending on the split of forces (i.e. how big they rush one side), you could very well just push through on the opposite side and simply trade territory for the time being.

sigh

can we play some matches so you can stop speculating and actually find out what works and what doesnt work?

[Sorrow]

Mystery... that is terrible advice. Theres no other way to slice it.

[Cackfiend]

Here's my challenge to you and every other person in this thread or even wesnoth for that matter. I will play you on Freelands, Weldyn Channel, and/or Caves of the Basilisk (the three biggest offenders) as me P1 Orcs and you P2 Drakes and I will GUARANTEE you I will win at least 4 of 5 games. If I lose 2 I will shut up about this matchups balance forever

So who wants to try and shut me up? =D

2 victims so far, any other takers?





also, the guy comparing gliders to HI poachers and wolfs.... hahahaha seriously? i mean come on

[soul_steven]

In all fairness to the HI comment only 1/4 of them are useful. *runs and hides*

[IB]

This thread needs more flankers

[grrr]

Well, I thought long and hard about the P2 drake problem, and after intensive research I came to the conclusion the problem comes with the maps, not the factions. Therefore, I tried to find a generic approach that would deny devastating P1 grunt rushs even on smaller, boxed maps:

Spoiler:

[map]Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu
Qxu , 1 Kud , Qxu^Bs\ , Qxu , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Qxu
Qxu , Qxu , Ss , Op , Op , Gg , Gg , Gg , Gs , Ss^Vhs , Ss , Qxu
Qxu , Ss , Gg , Gg^Fet , Op , Ggf , Gg , Gg^Fet , Op , Gs , Ss , Qxu
Qxu , Ss , Gg , Op , Hh^Fds , Mm^Vc , Op , Op , Op , Op , Ss , Qxu
Qxu , Ss , Gg , Op , Op , Op , Op , Hh^Fds , Mm^Vc , Op , Ss , Qxu
Qxu , Ss , Gg , Gs , Gs , Op , Gg^Fet , Ggf , Gg , Op , Ss , Qxu
Qxu , Ss , Ss^Vhs , Gg , Gg , Gg , Gg , Gg , Uu^Uf , Op , Cud , Qxu
Qxu , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Cud , Cud , 2 Kud , Qxu
Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu[/map]

Discuss!

[JW]

I didn't say anywhere that I am bad.

Er.....what happened to the post this quote was in?? It was there 5 minutes ago and now not.

I also swear Mystery posted something about not feeling the need to play Cackfiend because all it would do is show that he (Mystery) is a bad player (partly because he is not a Drake player). I can't seem to find that either atm.

edit: I found that it got split to here

[lostnumber]

I didn't say anywhere that I am bad.

Er.....what happened to the post this quote was in?? It was there 5 minutes ago and now not.

I also swear Mystery posted something about not feeling the need to play Cackfiend because all it would do is show that he (Mystery) is a bad player (partly because he is not a Drake player). I can't seem to find that either atm.

Both his original post and my response have mysteriously vanished. I suspect moderator meddling.

He did indeed say both of those things.

[JW]

Both his original post and my response have mysteriously vanished. I suspect moderator meddling.

He did indeed say both of those things.

Read my above edit. I found the split after I left the thread.

[lostnumber]

Well, I thought long and hard about the P2 drake problem, and after intensive research I came to the conclusion the problem comes with the maps, not the factions. Therefore, I tried to find a generic approach that would deny devastating P1 grunt rushs even on smaller, boxed maps:

Spoiler:

unbeatable_p2.jpg

[map]Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu
Qxu , 1 Kud , Qxu^Bs\ , Qxu , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Qxu
Qxu , Qxu , Ss , Op , Op , Gg , Gg , Gg , Gs , Ss^Vhs , Ss , Qxu
Qxu , Ss , Gg , Gg^Fet , Op , Ggf , Gg , Gg^Fet , Op , Gs , Ss , Qxu
Qxu , Ss , Gg , Op , Hh^Fds , Mm^Vc , Op , Op , Op , Op , Ss , Qxu
Qxu , Ss , Gg , Op , Op , Op , Op , Hh^Fds , Mm^Vc , Op , Ss , Qxu
Qxu , Ss , Gg , Gs , Gs , Op , Gg^Fet , Ggf , Gg , Op , Ss , Qxu
Qxu , Ss , Ss^Vhs , Gg , Gg , Gg , Gg , Gg , Uu^Uf , Op , Cud , Qxu
Qxu , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Ss , Cud , Cud , 2 Kud , Qxu
Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu , Qxu[/map]

Discuss!

I think you need to add more villages on the P2 side to balance his unfavorable starting terrain

[Thrawn]

Why not just raise the blade resist on clashers---it's not like most people melee them w/ blade anyways... is there something obvious I'm missing? Perhaps lower the fire resist some to compensate.

[Noy]

Okay, well I guess we should chime in. We've introduced three changes;
#1 healthy will get a small buff; we've been toying around with it for awhile so thats not surprising.
#2 the drake glider will get 40%
#3 trolls fire resistance will decrease by 10%

We do not believe that the drakes are unbalanced vs northerners. On the contrary, changes were made not to long ago because the drakes could easily withstand a northern assault on good terrain at night and then successfully wreak havoc with their dawn counterattack. This was blatantly apparent in quite a few 2v2 maps. On the basis of these changes its hard to believe the balance has skewed so badly the other way. Altering it would return the problem right back to where we started. However other 1v1 players I've discussed this with have discounted this as a serious problem in that gametype, so the balance will remain the same for the time being.

Also you should all consider this a soft lock... there isn't really much more to say now that we've ruled, although I don't want to be considered a tyrant who suppresses free speech, now do I?