Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

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Cackfiend
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Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

Post by Cackfiend »

Here is a list of things i'd like to see changed for 1.7. Some of them would need to be tested in the dev version first obviously to really test to see if they are good changes or not, but I believe they are all good changes ;)



Change #1: Drake Clashers should get the Fearless trait

One of the most unbalanced match ups currently in 1v1 is Drake vs Orc (especially when orcs are P1 and the map is small). By giving the Clasher the ability to get the fearless trait you are giving it 4-8 more retal damage to grunts at night (depending on if its strong or not). As of right now strong and non-strong clashers do 5-4 retal damage to grunts and isnt enough to deter the orc player from swarming a clasher in a village. At 41-49 hps a Clasher dies in 5 hits from grunts and any orc rushing player has no problem going for the 5/6 or 5/8 because they usually get it at 60% to hit and even if they dont theres always next turn.

I have played this match up about 15 times since I returned a few weeks ago and it has made me change back to going random in matches since so many people pick orc when I pick drakes now. This change might not exactly fix the unbalance of the match up but it's definitely a step in the right direction. It also makes sense as the Loyalist's HI, the Orc's Troll, and the Undead's Ghoul all get fearless... so should the Clasher.

The only other matchup this would really affect is Drake vs Loyalist but not nearly much. If you get a clasher with Fearless that does mean hes not getting 1 of the other traits too.

Change #2: Drake Gliders 40% Defense in all Hexes

Drake gliders have needed some love for a long time and I think this is the perfect idea for it. As a drake player I almost never make a glider because of how easily they die. If they had 40% in all hexes I might start making them part of my beginning recruit.

Change #3: No more Healthy trait!

This trait is seriously ruining dwarves. First off, the trait just sucks. It wasn't half bad when it halved poison damage, but now all it does is cripple dwarves even more because they miss out and the much more important traits of quick, strong, and resilient. Intelligent/Healthy Ulf's are the worst and so are all my 4 MP dwarf units because they got the useless healthy trait instead of quick. From all the high level ladder games I have observed since my return I would say Dwarves are the weakest faction and I think its mostly due to the healthy trait.

Change #4: No more strong for Elves

This one will probably get shot down quick but I don't think elves should be getting the Strong trait. Dextrous should replace Strong as a possibility not add to the list of available traits. It makes sense from several points of view and it makes fighters OP. I personally love Elves and think they are probably the strongest faction if you took the time to really learn to play them (they're like the Terran of Starcraft).




Other than that I think something needs to be done about Drake vs Undead since its the most unbalanced matchup in the game. I really don't have any ideas other than making undead only take 1 MP to move thru hills/forest but that might be too OP and would have to be tested quite a bit. The other change id like to see is Grunts going up to 13gp but too many people freak out when I mention it ;)


So please discuss my ideas, especially the first 3, as I truly think they are all steps to making Wesnoth a more balanced game, Thanks.
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Re: Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

Post by Sorrow »

1) Signed... beating drakes with orcs as p1 is so easy ... so very easy.

2) Sweet, would still be hands down the worst scout in the game :). But a little bit closer to being worth some gold.

3) Agreed, healthy takes away from lots of traits that do something positive for dwarves, making them slow, easy targets without as much HP as they could have. They don't even heal 2 if they are in a fight the turn before making the trait almost 100% worthless except for a few isolated incidents in which it saves the unit. (And even in those cases maybe getting strong or res would have saved it too). If it has to stay it should have something positive enough to balance losing a trait.

4) Dunno. My elf skill is about 0. All I know is 6-4 hurts as retal.
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Re: Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

Post by MasterDerf »

Agreed on all changes.

Orcs vs Drakes is definitely in the orcs favor. There are very few maps where a strong rush isn't possible and even a mediocre player can decimate a drake with this tactic. Drakes are too expensive and orcs are too cheap to be giving up villages that early on in the game. With the fearless change, it doesn't necessarily help the longevity of a clasher guarding a village, but the retail potential makes a counter with saurans much more plausible. As it is now, even the best drake player has to rely on some luck to prevent a well deployed grunt rush.

Gliders... this game has been out for how long and these things still suck? My impression of a glider when I fight one on the battlefield "FREE XP!" They have crappy defense and crappy retail damage. Totally agree to showing this unit some love.

Healthy, a good idea gone bad because of balance issues. It would be best to get rid of it.

Strong elves, hey let's face it, nothing that has that many chances to do damage during turn should be capable of getting such a high amount of total damage. High defense and high retaliation damage is just too good of a combo for this trait.

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Re: Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

Post by Doc Paterson »

Ha, took about 2 years for people to believe me about Orc v. Drake, but here it is :P

I think giving the Clasher fearless would be too overpowering against Loys. People already complain about Drakes being too powerful there as it is. If it were up to me (which it's not), I'd just bump the grunt cost up to 13.

About the strong Elf Fighter issue - I'd agree if it wasn't for the Drake matchup....which I think is already pretty difficult for Elves. There's a big damage differential between what a strong fighter and a non-strong fighter can do to a saurian (7-4 for strong, 5-4 for non-strong). If the saurian blade weakness got another -10, I think all non-strong elves would get at least 6-4. That'd be an alright change in my opinion, and wouldn't have much of an effect on other matchups.

About Gliders - I agree that they're pretty bad, but it's not like Drakes could use that kind of power-up. There are enough players who think they're recruitable, so I'd say just let them recruit them, and let your knowledge (about Glider lameness) be your advantage. Recruiting ought not to be too obvious in my opinion - There *should* be different views about what is or is not worth recruiting. Recruiting always being obvious is just boring, so I'm all for letting some units be (in my own perception) a little weaker. I'd only want to power up the Glider if the faction as a whole needed a hand up, and I really don't think it does, outside of this small thing with Grunts. In that case I think it's more of an issue with the Grunts, and not the Drakes.
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Re: Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

Post by alpha1 »

1. ummm i think drakes are already strong enough and dont need another power-up... rising grunt cost to 13g sounds like a good idea though. Also while we are at it, perhaps spear should cost 15g? Its a *really* good unit for its current cost, perhaps a bit too good...

2. indifferent. On the one hand, this would make sense, since sky drake gets 50% on almost all terrain types, on the other hand see the first point.

3. really good idea, getting less "quick" (or any other trait, although i think quick is the best trait for dwarves) because of useless "healthy" can really hurt dwarves.

4. i believe elves already have hard time against drakes, loys, and orcs. I see no point in weakening them even more.

concerning ud: yeah something must be done. In my experience getting ud vs loys/drakes on weldyn/freelands is an almost certain gg. I dont know about other maps, but in theory ud must be even weaker on bigger maps.
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Re: Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

Post by Cackfiend »

alpha1 wrote:1. ummm i think drakes are already strong enough and dont need another power-up...

if you need some examples of why orc vs drake is OP take a look at any of my recent replays on ladder of this matchup. Also played a game vs MasterDerf last night that you can download here

I have tested the match up extensively and something needs to be done about it.
alpha1 wrote: 4. i believe elves already have hard time against drakes, loys, and orcs. I see no point in weakening them even more.
I dont necessarily think taking strong out of the available traits is a weakening move. It means more dextrous archers and fighters. Also, I believe the common feeling of these matchups is that drakes vs elves is pretty balanced and orcs vs elves the elves have an edge.
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Re: Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

Post by Cackfiend »

Doc Paterson wrote: I think giving the Clasher fearless would be too overpowering against Loys.
This might be the only problem with the idea. Fearless would be way more beneficial in the orc matchup than vs loyalist though and it would even make it easier for the loyalist to out run a clasher at night. I'd really like to see the change implemented and tested to see how it goes.

Doc Paterson wrote: About the strong Elf Fighter issue - I'd agree if it wasn't for the Drake matchup....which I think is already pretty difficult for Elves. There's a big damage differential between what a strong fighter and a non-strong fighter can do to a saurian (7-4 for strong, 5-4 for non-strong). If the saurian blade weakness got another -10, I think all non-strong elves would get at least 6-4. That'd be an alright change in my opinion, and wouldn't have much of an effect on other matchups.
Drakes vs Elves has always been a pretty even match up imo. I use to rate it as my 2nd hardest match when played against a good player. Yes you would be getting rid of the 7-4 potential vs saurians... but isnt that a lil OP as it is? Saurians dont have many hps and taking away the ability for a single elvish fighter from killing a full HP augur in one attack isnt exactly a bad thing (strong resilient augurs have 28 hps). Also, it would help the matchup for elves in a big way with improving the chances of getting Dextrous. As you know, a Dextrous archer is the only archer type that takes advantage of the Fighter, Glider, and Burner's -10% pierce knocking it from 5-4 to 7-4. Also more Elvish fighters with 4-3 ranged would be nice in many matchups.

Strong Fighters and Archers right now are non factors vs the same Fighter, Glider and Burner because they have 10% slashing resist and neutralize the strong trait making it a wasted trait vs these units. Think about it and I think you will come to the same conclusion as me :P


Doc Paterson wrote: About Gliders - I agree that they're pretty bad, but it's not like Drakes could use that kind of power-up. There are enough players who think they're recruitable, so I'd say just let them recruit them, and let your knowledge (about Glider lameness) be your advantage. Recruiting ought not to be too obvious in my opinion - There *should* be different views about what is or is not worth recruiting. Recruiting always being obvious is just boring, so I'm all for letting some units be (in my own perception) a little weaker.


"enough players" are not the best players though. I only want input from people that are the best at this game (like you) and not the general online population (because half of them make 2 gliders to start with). All good drake players hesitate to make a Glider especially on small maps. A quick Fighter is a way better option. Increasing the gliders survivability by just a tad isnt an OPing move and makes the unit just enough powerful to start actually considering.




Also, no comment on the healthy trait? :P
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Re: Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

Post by Velensk »

I do not agree with any of your main points except perhaps the glider one. I'd not be opposed to removing healthy, but I do think that reducing the chance of quick dwarves for an increased chance at extra hp and poison resistance is a very thematically fitting thing.

As for the other stuff. I agree that the undead could use some boost. I don't think that the northerners (or rebels for that matter) need to be weakened. I would not be opposed to an increase in spearman cost.

EDIT: while I'm here I might as well put in a reminder about troll fire weakness.
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Re: Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

Post by Aethaeryn »

The glider promotions have an awesome movetype. Have the gliders have that movetype and they'd be used a lot more often. It would also compliment the fact that none of the Drakes can dodge.
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Re: Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

Post by Doc Paterson »

Summary of where I now stand on the various points:

-Clasher gets fearless - If it's in response to Northerner/Drake, I think that problem is better addressed by making Grunts 13G. I don't think the increase would have much of an influence in the other matchups.

- Trolls get fire weakness - Support completely, for reasons of dynamism.

- Glider buff - Neutral. I don't think changing defense to 40 everywhere would be an overpowering move by any means, and would probably be fine, I just hesitate to power up Drake in even the smallest ways.

- Elves lose strong trait - I misread the original proposal, and thought Cack was talking only about Fighters losing it. If we're talking about all elves losing it, a move that increases the likelihood of Dextrous Archers (and dextrous Fighters and Scouts, but this, to me, is less significant), then I am in favor of it.

- Healthy gets trashed - I don't know....I do think it's the weakest trait, but would rather see it improved than see it go altogether.


I'd also like to add that we may *also* want to address this Grunt issue by making small map tweaks. I think that this new concept of P2 starting with a village will be a step in the right direction. Adjusting TOD to find the most generally balanced start is also an option, and as always, I encourage people to discuss this stuff in the Map Digest thread.
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Re: Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

Post by Huston »

Doc Paterson wrote:Healthy gets trashed - I don't know....I do think it's the weakest trait, but would rather see it improved than see it go altogether.
what if healthy also allowed a dwarf to move 1 hex further than non healthy or non quick units every other turn.(in my experience a healthy person can move faster and farther than a non healthy person, but not faster than a fast (quick person)

so a summary make healthy retain what it does now. but every other turn allow a healthy dwarf to move 1 hex further than it normally would.

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Re: Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

Post by Velensk »

That sounds rather un-KISS, especially for a trait.
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Re: Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

Post by Huston »

how isn't it kiss?
if i recall there's a Variable for mp so just manipulate the variable.
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Re: Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

Post by Velensk »

It makes it so that the unit moves different amounts on different turns. Although it is a simple concept (and easy to impliment), it is not simple gameplay. Units always have the same mp every turn.
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Re: Cackfiend's Balance Change Ideas for 1.7

Post by Thrawn »

I'm for grunts costing 13 gold, personally...
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