random Time of Day as default setting

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ezysquire
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random Time of Day as default setting

Post by ezysquire »

This is a replay of a game that gives perfect starting time of day advantage to lawful factions. The drake player is given a huge advantage vs undead in this situation.
Perhaps this replay will provide useful evidence in a discussion on returning Wesnoth default setting to fixed starting ToD (dawn), as was the case in previous versions.

For the sake of debate, I think chaotic should be entitled to the first push owing to Undead's generally slower speed and Northies lack of dynamic attack without significant numerical superiority; something they do not have at the start of a game.

Enjoy the replay.
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alpha1
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Re: random Time of Day as default setting

Post by alpha1 »

I fully agree with you. More so it always seemed strange to me that 1vs1 maps should be played with fixed starting time to avoid unbalanced games (which is true), while 2vs2 have random starting time as default setting
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Cackfiend
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Re: random Time of Day as default setting

Post by Cackfiend »

I fully disagree with you. I wish everyone played Random ToD all the time. It adds so much more strategy to the game and changes up peoples game play. Without it the game will get boring and stale for some people very quickly.


Imagine an orc or undead having to actually defend the first day time cycle since the game started at dusk instead of dawn *gasp*



And yes I have played plenty with random ToD turned on and it was fine. Good players know how to adapt.







But I do agree with you that Undead are too slow... always been my main gripe with them. Why is their movement type so terrible anyway? They should be able to move thru forest and hills using just 1 mp IMO... they are undead afterall, not like they get tired
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Velensk
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Re: random Time of Day as default setting

Post by Velensk »

I'd say using that logic that they'd get extra movement not a better movetype.

I've always related the ability to get through rough terrain not to endurace, but to skills/shapes.

Dwarves are adept climbers and know their way around hills. They are also tough enough and short enough that they can go under and through rough underbrush in woods that would slow humans down.

Elves probably don't go under trees if there is an obsitcal I imagine they go through the canopy as they are light enough to not snap as many branches, and agile enough to climb quickly.

Orcs are also probably quite good at climbing consitering where they live.

Undead are able to get through water easier because they don't need to breath and they would generate less resistance.
EDIT: on the other hand, I can easily imagine skelotons walking into trees and over cliffs. Though I imagine this dons't really happen.
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Cackfiend
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Re: random Time of Day as default setting

Post by Cackfiend »

i think you may be over analyzing move type a little bit =]

balance changes in wesnoth have never needed a good 'roleplay' reason i guess you could call it


for example: drakes taking 2 mp to move over deep water

it makes absolutely no sense but it was a balance thing




but i personally see a good balance change and a good 'roleplay' reason for undead movetype to be changed to 1mp thru forest/hills, but maybe thats just me
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Velensk
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Re: random Time of Day as default setting

Post by Velensk »

I have a couple thoughts on why logically drakes might fly slower over deep water, but those A: don't explain every instance and B are kind of irrelevent to this discussion.

To be on topic: Personally I actually like it the way it is now. Random for 2vs2, set for 1vs1. Though the reason I like this has nothing to do with balance just metagame.
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Yoyobuae
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Re: random Time of Day as default setting

Post by Yoyobuae »

Would there be a problem with random ToD options like dawn/dusk, afternoon/2nd watch or morning/1st watch?

It seems to me that it's fair that both, lawful or chaotic faction, get 50% chance of getting their prefered ToD (when the real battle starts, that is).

Probably each map would have one option that offers the best balance.
Caphriel
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Re: random Time of Day as default setting

Post by Caphriel »

I can't cite due to not remember where the discussion was, and not having time at the moment to find it, but the reason 1v1 maps start at dawn is because the lawful factions are more maneuverable than the chaotic ones, generally speaking, and the chaotic factions therefore need the advantage of the first push to gain some space, and at the same time aren't fast enough to win outright against a lawful faction. While random start time might be more interesting...
Cackfiend wrote:Imagine an orc or undead having to actually defend the first day time cycle since the game started at dusk instead of dawn *gasp*
Imagine trying to defend with orcs or undead against a drake rush or a loyalist cavalry and horseman rush. The current set of 1v1 maps is spaced so that the orcs and undead can manage a push, but they're usually not in position to attack until first watch. The drakes, if the game started at evening, could be in position to attack at dawn.

Actually, try checking out the modern multiplayer map reader's digest for a discussion of starting time and its effects. I think.
grrr
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Re: random Time of Day as default setting

Post by grrr »

Different (=adjusted) starting times for each map is perhaps the only thing that makes sense. As for 2v2 I could imagine some WML that checks for faction combos and adjusts TOD accordingly. For example:
(lawful, lawful) vs (non-lawful, non-lawful) := dawn.
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Sorrow
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Re: random Time of Day as default setting

Post by Sorrow »

Orcs are not slow :\
+1MP on skellies would be a disaster of epic proportions, even 1 MP through both hills and forrest I think would a bit scary. Maybe 1 MP through hills would be OK but I don't really know.

The ToD based on map is a very good idea.
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Doc Paterson
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Re: random Time of Day as default setting

Post by Doc Paterson »

The justification for Drakes having 2 mp over deep water is that they're not true flyers- They're "hop gliders," and they touch down on land every once in a while (that's been the concept from the beginning, way before the deep water movement change occurred). Shallower water doesn't affect this much as Drakes are very tall, but deep water does slow the process of jumping into "flight" again.

About 2v2s having random TOD - The general consensus has been that this is much more acceptable because of the fact that players will almost always be dealing with a number of different factions, and that the diversity of alignments and options tends to iron out TOD issues. Double chaotic against double lawful is pretty rare, and 2v2 balance is already a very generalized thing, because of this property of wide unit-selection options.
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ezysquire
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Re: random Time of Day as default setting

Post by ezysquire »

Cackfiend wrote: Imagine an orc or undead having to actually defend the first day time cycle since the game started at dusk instead of dawn *gasp*
Seems you have commented without looking at the replay. And don't pass judgement on the final moves of the purle player... the issue about random ToD is raised by that player being shut out of the game by the drake aggression coupled with the ToD. There were few moves available for purple and none of them were particularly good; it was gg.
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Cackfiend
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Re: random Time of Day as default setting

Post by Cackfiend »

considering undead vs drake is the most unbalanced matchup in wesnoth, i doubt random ToD had that huge of an influence on the outcome
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Pentarctagon
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Re: random Time of Day as default setting

Post by Pentarctagon »

Cackfiend wrote:considering undead vs drake is the most unbalanced matchup in wesnoth, i doubt random ToD had that huge of an influence on the outcome
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Aethaeryn
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Re: random Time of Day as default setting

Post by Aethaeryn »

Cackfiend wrote:considering undead vs drake is the most unbalanced matchup in wesnoth, i doubt random ToD had that huge of an influence on the outcome
It's the most enjoyable matchup in Wesnoth. Both sides can do massive damage to the other.
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