An idea about trolls

[Velensk]

One of the things that bothers me about a northerner mirror match is that if it goes long enough there is a tendancy for it to be essential that a good portion of each army be trolls (note: I don't have the replay evidence immediatly on hand but hear me out). This is not because trolls in and of themselves are overly strong compared to the other units, it is because unlike the other units trolls are not very suseptible to poison. In a large battle on most maps, a pair/trio of assassins could poison more grunts than there are villages available while the trolls act as a meatshield. This in and off itself dosn't bother me too much however it brings my other problem to the forfront, and this is that the northerners do not have any good method of getting a troll out of good terrain, or even killing a resiliant troll from 3 hexes in one turn without a decent amount of luck (before he can be cycled out to regenerate). I think that between that and the overall low firepower of trolls this helps contribute to the northerner mirror being defensive.

My thought was that it might be a good idea to give the trolls a fire weakness so that they could more effectivly be countered by orchish archers. This would in turn give more incentive to build grunts (because there is more insentive to build archers).

Effect on other matches:
Drakes: Trolls already arn't used much vs drakes. I don't think this would affect the match too much.
Loyalists/rebels: Would make it so that mages are even better at routing trolls out of good terrain. I don't think that this is a bad thing.
Northerners/Undead: no fire so it is irrelevant.

Campaigns: I don't think that this would be too negitive when it comes to the player fighting the trolls (though the troll hole in TRoW might need some rebalancing). In SotBE I think this could simply be another factor balancing out the troll warriors vs orcish warlords. I'm probably forgetting something, if you think that you know a scenario where this would create a problem feel free to mention it.

Basically I think this change would help contribute to making the northerner match-up a little less defensive while giving a more definitive way for other factions to unroot trolls and not being to much of a problem in the campaigns.

In terms of lore, I think it can simply be explained that fire makes it harder for trolls to regenerate or something to that effect.

Comments/Concerns?

[5dPZ]

I agree what Velensk said about troll.

IMO, trolls might be one of the most "overpowered" units right now in default era.

40+hp (up to 48?!), regenerate, 60%!/50% defence, blade/piece resistance, no weakness - all for a mere 13g?! not mention its impact damage arguabley the best physical damage type.

I wish HI is this good as a meatshield at 19g (same movement, less hp, less defence, elemental weakness, no regeneration etc etc). Of course HI has much better damage, but as a defensive meatshield role, I prefer troll (a 13g unit) over HI anytime.

I think in the comparison trolls over HI, there is much to be balanced, either make trolls weaker, or makes HI stronger.

(PS: HI at 19g is also much worse than wose with 1 gold different, IMO, but that's another story)

[Velensk]

I really don't think that trolls are overpowered. (though I don't find heavy infanry very usefull I don't see why you are comparing the two right now)

I just thought that this one match-up would benefit from such a weakness being added and that others would not be damaged too much.

[Aethaeryn]

The whole point of Northerners is cheap, tank-ish infantry. A change that makes another mirror less boring would be nice, though. Undead mirrors used to be dull, but with the arcane secondary on the DAs, they're now pretty entertaining.

[Sorrow]

I defiantly feel northie mirror is the only sane mirror match right now and doesn't need any tweaks. Troll on mountain can be treated the same as a dwarf on mountain, ignore it, hes got lots of other units you can focus on. If you're going to attack a troll it has to be lower on the defensive side and triple teamed at night, not all that difficult. At least it doesn't seem like an issue to me.

I don't hardly use trolls vs Loys and never vs rebels so I don't know what the consequences would be, probably not a lot. still would probably be one less mage strike to kill the troll. But that would take math figure out and I dont care enough nor do I know what the fire weakness would be.

My opinion: Pointless to have the negative resist as there isn't really a problem.

[Ken_Oh]

I think the idea is interesting, but I really think you should have gotten some replays first.

[Velensk]

I'll go hunting for replays I guess. Is there any way to get the replays sorted by match-up.

Sorrow: Even if you triple team a troll at night when it is in the open you don't have a statistical kill on a troll if they place a resilient one at the corners. If you fail to kill it, it can simply retreat and regenerate.

6 attacks against 30% defense averages at about 4 hits. Strong grunt deals 10 damage if the troll is resilient it has about 47hp depending on other traits. If you were using grunts to attack the troll then you took some retaliation. If you were using archers then you did 9 damage per hit which means that you'd nee 6/6 instead of 5/6 and you'd be in position to be mobbed by whatever melee units he has around.

The idea is to make it less risky to try to attack when there are a large number of trolls on the field. You will still be taking a risk if you go after a troll with archers (if you fail to kill it then you'll have your relatively squishy archers in the frontline while the troll is free to retreat) however the odds of killing it would be greater, and unlike trying to go after that troll with grunts or other trolls that dose not leave your units wounded in addition to being out in the open when the enemy can then just take his turn and retreat the troll. I don't know how much of a weakness it should be if this gets implemented, but I was thinking enough of a weakness that the archers get at least 11-2 damage against the troll at night.

[Doc Paterson]

I've thought for a long time now that Northerner mirror was a huge drag. (Does he really need replays to show this? I'd figure that most of us have seen more than our fill of sluggish Northerner mirrors.)

I think Velensk's proposal for a fire weakness is a very good one.

[Cackfiend]

I concur with Doc

[Limabean]

while I hate to see trolls weakened (what is more awesome than being made of solid rock?), you make a good argument. If this change is made, the weakness should be as minimal as possible. If mages get a serious advantage, it could easily throw off balance.

[Velensk]

First of all: thank you doc for relieving me of the duty to find a replay. I quickly discovered that looking for the correct match-up alone takes awhile without the qualification of having to find one between good players that dosn't end quickly. It's also nice to have support from a dev on a balance issue.

The mage will by nature, get the same damage per strike against the troll as the archer, but one more strike and magic (so if the archer gets 11-2 at night against the troll the mage will get 11-3 at day). My view on this may be a bit slanted because I rarely get mages against northerners except to get trolls out of mountains/hills and grunts out of villages, but I don't think that it would be too much of a problem though it does make it so that the northerners have an even harder time holding ground at day.

Now admittedly I do think the northerners could use an improved edge somewhere, but that wasn't what this proposal was about.

[Sorrow]

Ive been playing with spearmen recently which die leaving their space open and weakening the troll by 1 or 2 hits. Admittedly not the greatest plan in the world and its not efficient. I've always liked that trolls pretty much always survive for 1 turn when left out in the relative open. Gives me confidence that the ends wont be broken when you stick one there... maybe thats bad.
I still think northie mirror is the most fun/best played mirror, with or without the fire weak trolls.

[grrr]

(First, I agree that northie mirrors can bog down. I still don't think they are the worst mirrors though, since a lot still depends on the players to let the troll spam happen in the first place. And even then, getting lvl2s requires a bit of tactical thinking so it isn't too boring, for me at least.)

Sadly, loy rushs (say, because of random start time) are very deadly to northies. And a quick mage with 11-3 vs my leader frightens me ... a lot!

(burner: 9-4 or 11-4, ieek!, orcish archer: 11-2, mage: 11-3 or 13-3 ><).

Or perhaps just give the orcish archer a weapon special? Let me propose Arson raid: 25% to deal double dmg with fire attack (chance per strike). If I am not mistaken it would give the same effect, basically: 10.9375 dmg on average per strike.

Edit: Yes yes, costs would have to increase by one to 15g, but that's totally OK!

[Velensk]

Part of my inital post was a statement that the massed trolls becomes somewhat required if it goes on long enough. Because a few assassins with a bunch of trolls are a problem for a force of grunts. This would have been what I would try to get a replay to demonstrate.

Quick mages wouldn't be any more scary to trolls than they are to revenants or death blades. Infact they would be less of a threat because a troll has the hp to take the damage and is in a match-up where you are less likely to see lots of mages.

You don't recruit that many trolls vs drakes anyway. If you're worried about your leader, don't bring them into the field at day. If it is so bad you can't hold the line, then pull back.

Or perhaps just give the orcish archer a weapon special? Let me propose Arson raid: 25% to deal double dmg with fire attack (chance per strike). If I am not mistaken it would give the same effect, basically: 10.9375 dmg on average per strike.

That would not have the same effect. What it would do is make the orcish archer much stronger in all match-ups rather than giving the troll a better counter in a few. I really do not like your proposal not only for thematic reasons (it's like adding a critical hit mechanic, I don't like the idea of weapon specials that trigger at random) but it also sounds like a good way to hurt the balancing for northerners vs undead and the balance of the two orcish archer attacks.

[grrr]

That would not have the same effect. What it would do is make the orcish archer much stronger in all match-ups rather than giving the troll a better counter in a few. I really do not like your proposal not only for thematic reasons (it's like adding a critical hit mechanic, I don't like the idea of weapon specials that trigger at random) but it also sounds like a good way to hurt the balancing for northerners vs undead and the balance of the two orcish archer attacks.

If you are allowed to state that "burner: 9-4 or 11-4, orcish archer: 11-2, mage: 11-3 or 13-3" has no effect on game balance since it only "affects mirrors" and isn't much of a problem in other matchups then I can state more fire power for the archer has no effect on game balance, no? It gets silly, really.

We both probably know that the only independent change would be yet another damage type, but that is unlikely to happen. So instead of nerfing trolls to the point where you simply cannot recruit them anymore (in *all* but 2 faction matchups) I was simply trying to come up with something more creative than messing with resistances (which almost always affects other faction matchups regardless, and fire dmg *is* already a very powerful dmg type).

However, I know critical hits aren't exactly welcomed here, but why not?! It's not as if wesnoth fights were deterministic or such.