Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Post Reply
Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Post by Mabuse »

simply start a 2 player game and build ghost and gryphs (for easiness you can just train cav in any eastmark city and see how it does versus elite inf, and cav)

and yes, you're right, DRAIN is difficult to balance fully.
i see your point versus normal inf. see this how dangerous the ghosts are ;)

i just added it to make things a bit different.
as an alternative i may give ghosts a flat 100 HP and 10 move. and remove drain.
then it would be essentially the same as a grfiffin. would be also ok after all
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
MRhe
Posts: 88
Joined: July 19th, 2004, 7:33 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA
Contact:

Re: Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Post by MRhe »

Just wanted to say that I love these maps/mods! Played Europe a few times and Wesnoth a couple times. I think I prefer Wesnoth but both are very fun. I just downloaded your recent file Mabuse so I will let you know what I think. I love the idea of undead units for flavor and a new region, although without playtesting it seems that drain (!) would be a bit overpowered in this game.

The second option may be best. The current unit differences are slight enough to not be major but significant enough to add some flavor and bonus for using them. It seems like drain would throw this balance off.

Great work, thanks!
Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Post by Mabuse »

ok, i thought about it and changed it

to add at least a little bit flavor ghost HP stay at 50, but they have now also 50% resistance against blade. means they take half of the damage.

so essentiallly the same as HP 100 with blade resistance of 0, but they will regenerate HP faster in cities, their movement was raised to 9 though.

so slightly weaker movement than griffin, better citiy regeneration, and essentially same combats stats.
drain has gone



for europe map: italy bonus is now 4
Attachments
conquestpack1172.rar
(15.74 KiB) Downloaded 308 times
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
Lmao
Posts: 20
Joined: December 23rd, 2009, 7:47 am

Re: Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Post by Lmao »

nice mabuse i like the addition. however do you think you can make it so all the villages on the map are occupied? like in conquest europe.

UPDATE :
Bitter Swamp doesnt seem to allowing you to recruit undead in 1.172. Also my idea would be keep abez, get rid of bitter swamp, and instead make the dread swamps into the place where undead can be recruited. its pretty close to wesnoth and if u just make a ford closer to the two it would also work, plus ghosts fly anyways.
europe_emperor
Posts: 8
Joined: December 30th, 2009, 2:18 pm

Re: Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Post by europe_emperor »

I can't start a game, my computer crashes if i try to download a conquest.
but never mind.

My reply maybe looked like a negative one, but i would have liked to have drain in wesnoth conquest.
because, it brings flavor (like you kinda say.)
And because not many people can spawn ghost, most likely only 1 can. it wouldnt be so bad. The only problem is that if someone with a lot of gold get it, he could make swarming overpowered drain machines.:)


I would love to see more races, i mean more special units, like a ghost.
So i would love to see draining ghosts in wesnoth conquest, if you could balance good.
I don't want to get all the same units everywere, and i guess wesnoth conquest is designed to not have only the same units like in Europe.
More flavor=better, so good job, maybe you could try to make a ghost with drain with like 50 hp, 12-4 maybe even 10-5, DRAIN, 50% everywhere, 8 movement and cost 5 gold (for example)

BTW will there be drakes in conquest wesnoth soon??:D
Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Post by Mabuse »

Lmao wrote: UPDATE :
Bitter Swamp doesnt seem to allowing you to recruit undead in 1.172.
in my tests it works
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Post by Mabuse »

Lmao wrote: get rid of bitter swamp, and instead make the dread swamps into the place where undead can be recruited.
mwell, the problem is that in this section there is already knalgan and if i put all "interesting " units into the north (orcs in north, dwrves in north already), in direct neighbourhood, then a players who controls north can bring all "special units" into the battle. (so a knalgan players may also control dread swamp and this woudlnt add anything, just that griffins woudlnt be used anymore, since he can get fhosts which start more near wesnoth))

thats the reason why i didnt put undead in dread swamps .. othtrwise it would have been a good place for them.

also, undead in dread swamp is TOO NEAR wesnoth. this would be a bit unfair.


also i dont think its bad with these two fords in the north of wesnoth, if i make it again just ONE ford (but a bit more east), then the knalgan invaders and invaders from dread swamps block each other again, and wesnoth has still only one entry there.

by now the room for invasion is more and thus more difficult to defnd.

still there are two regions which act as blockers, so wesnoth isnt in direct danger.


also bitter swamps may add a bit more flavor to the "situation" in south. it will be hard to hold eastmark without conquering the bitter swamps, since an enemy player can cause some trouble there with the ghosts
Last edited by Mabuse on January 4th, 2010, 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
europe_emperor
Posts: 8
Joined: December 30th, 2009, 2:18 pm

Re: Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Post by europe_emperor »

ghost don't have drain anymore :(???
Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Post by Mabuse »

but 50% on blade (instead of drain)

so they get half damage, and thus to their low HP they recover more quickly
i just reponded to your "drain may be overpowered" complain.
(in essence ghost with 50 HP and 50% resist to blade is same as 100 HP and 0 % resist to blade, but the low base HP is better for recover)

and i have to agree partially, so i differentiated them a bit, and the 50% resist on blade is something that fits better into the game-flow, it can be better calculated/estimated
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
europe_emperor
Posts: 8
Joined: December 30th, 2009, 2:18 pm

Re: Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Post by europe_emperor »

Ok, 50% blade resistance is good to. The skeletons have blade 0% dont they, shouldn't they have more too??

i don't see it as complain, i see it more like prefenting a little procent of games from failure because they would have very strong ghosts :wink:

yeah, not to many "special" units fits more in game flow, if you would add things like skirmisher and drain it unbalance this great game:D
Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Post by Mabuse »

europe_emperor wrote:Ok, 50% blade resistance is good to. The skeletons have blade 0% dont they, shouldn't they have more too??
umm, the blade resistance is just a game mechnic, not game-logic. so its just used for combat calculation (ships also have blade damage whch doesnt make any other sense than keeping the game consistent for the battle calculation.

so if i would have wanted to make skels have faster city regeneration i could half their HP and give them 50% balde resistacne. (which was not needed though'. they are already strong enough)

however, currently they are diffrent from the dwarves already.

this is due to terrain defnse (and movement). dwarves have 30% def in open, skels have 40%.
so skels are better in open and woods (than dwarves), while dwarves are better in hills and mountains.


also skel infantry can cross deep water ;)



in conquest combat is simplified, means all units do blade damage, all units (except ghosts atm) have 0% blade resistance.

EDIT:
ok, we could give them other damage types, but then we must also set the resistance for that damage type to 0%. which isnt needed right now, unless we want to invent other damage types to make combat more different
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
europe_emperor
Posts: 8
Joined: December 30th, 2009, 2:18 pm

Re: Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Post by europe_emperor »

yeah, all ressistance 0% except for ghost is OK :P

Ghost 50% def but 50 hp doesn't chance anything though. but doesnt matter, the game is good enough for my :D
europe_emperor
Posts: 8
Joined: December 30th, 2009, 2:18 pm

Re: Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Post by europe_emperor »

giving all units there normal attack... then we only have 1 other thing, and that is impact (dwarves) and then arcane too with ghost now, then dwarves would really be powerfull vs undead they would then easily kill skeletons.
Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Post by Mabuse »

europe_emperor wrote: Ghost 50% def but 50 hp doesn't chance anything though. but doesnt matter, the game is good enough for my :D
i think i mentioned it often enough, but i repeat it a last time:

a unit can heal 8 HP on a village in 1 turn.
if a unit has 50 HP it can recover their HP faster to 100% than a 100 HP unit

so while a ghost has same strengh in combat than a griffin, it can recover its HP faster. so there is a slight advantage for the ghost

for that reason the ghost has -1 MP
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: Conquest 1.0 - Now on the 1.6 Add-on Server

Post by Mabuse »

europe_emperor wrote:giving all units there normal attack... then we only have 1 other thing, and that is impact (dwarves) and then arcane too with ghost now, then dwarves would really be powerfull vs undead they would then easily kill skeletons.
and ghost would be weak since all units have arcane resistance. so ghosts would be useless and we must make a new balance.

also when we give all units there normal attack, .... why dont give we them their normal resistances ? cavalry has resists against blade, dwarves also .....

all balance is gone ...
(of course we coudl rebalance all stats, so it fits again, but this seems more complicated then using just one damage-type and a flat resistance)

also: what benefit would it have to make dwarves strong verssu undead ? does it make a special sense gamewise ?

"you are undead. your enemy is dwarves. you have lost."

does it make sense ?

also in conquest all units are neutral (except orcs, but that is just to give them a different flavor), do we now also need to change that ? or is it ok as it is ... ?

note that conquest isnt normal wesnoth, in conquest all units have berserk attack and unless we need a "paper, stone, scissors" system. we can go comfortable with just one damage type.
and one alignment.

the real difference is terrain defense.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
Post Reply