Lvl 2 ideas for wc's and bats
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Lvl 2 ideas for wc's and bats
I personally enjoy using wc's and bats while playing the undead (although I need a little more work using wc's). I do feel like the wc's seem to be a waste for giving kills after they level once. Since they increased the gold for balance in the development (not something I disagree with so much, wc's are fun to use and no maintance), it might be a good idea to give them a level 2 to encourage their use and give them a reason to get kills besides more wc's.
Basically, I was contemplating giving them a standard increase among their abilities (I'm not too good with the numbers), not too significant, but giving them the Feeding ability of the necrophage, which gives you a reason to feed kills besides more wc's, and doesn't lead to another level-up (which would probably be ridiculous), helping to preserve the low maintance aspect of wc's.
As far as bats go, I think they help as a cheap scout, but I tend to enjoy giving exp to units that can use it, and a level 2 for a unit that gets to level 1 quite fast would be nice. While a standard increase would work just as well, giving a Level 2 bat something like poison or regeneration would be interesting, any thoughts?
I realize that the developers seem to want to avoid giving every unit multiple level-ups, but I think these changes, particularly for the wc's, would be in interesting, if not fun, change. Also, this would help use of wc's in the campaigns that allow their use, limited as it is for standard campaigns.
Basically, I was contemplating giving them a standard increase among their abilities (I'm not too good with the numbers), not too significant, but giving them the Feeding ability of the necrophage, which gives you a reason to feed kills besides more wc's, and doesn't lead to another level-up (which would probably be ridiculous), helping to preserve the low maintance aspect of wc's.
As far as bats go, I think they help as a cheap scout, but I tend to enjoy giving exp to units that can use it, and a level 2 for a unit that gets to level 1 quite fast would be nice. While a standard increase would work just as well, giving a Level 2 bat something like poison or regeneration would be interesting, any thoughts?
I realize that the developers seem to want to avoid giving every unit multiple level-ups, but I think these changes, particularly for the wc's, would be in interesting, if not fun, change. Also, this would help use of wc's in the campaigns that allow their use, limited as it is for standard campaigns.
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F8 Binds...
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Re: Lvl 2 ideas for wc's and bats
I can say a few things.
-I am fairly sure the lack of a L2 on walking corpses and vampire bats is an intended dynamic. I can't say much more on this.
-Developing art for the units would be a pain- especially for the walking corpse. Not only are you developing the regular image, but a troll L2 image, a fish L2 image, a dwarf L2 image... you get the point.
-I don't like the idea of large, fat, monstrous gargantuans with plague walking around. Perhaps this is just me, but a unit walking around with 9-3, 10-3, 11-3, 7-4, or 8-4 plague seems very deadly. I also think it's slightly... unoriginal to give a unit, however infrequent you'll level into it, poison when you have ghouls. Not sure about regenerates.
-I might recall that there is a L2 (please correct me if I'm wrong) bat in UtBS.
-You shouldn't depend on any L2 bats, or L2 corpses added to the game- but it is fairly easy to make an undead campaign and add hand-crafted units (like these L2's you mention) into it. You'd get the units you wanted, and yet it wouldn't be added to the game. The coding is much easier than the artwork, though.
That's all I have to say- other than you shouldn't depend on any game ideas suggested by users being implemented into the game.
-I am fairly sure the lack of a L2 on walking corpses and vampire bats is an intended dynamic. I can't say much more on this.
-Developing art for the units would be a pain- especially for the walking corpse. Not only are you developing the regular image, but a troll L2 image, a fish L2 image, a dwarf L2 image... you get the point.
-I don't like the idea of large, fat, monstrous gargantuans with plague walking around. Perhaps this is just me, but a unit walking around with 9-3, 10-3, 11-3, 7-4, or 8-4 plague seems very deadly. I also think it's slightly... unoriginal to give a unit, however infrequent you'll level into it, poison when you have ghouls. Not sure about regenerates.
-I might recall that there is a L2 (please correct me if I'm wrong) bat in UtBS.
-You shouldn't depend on any L2 bats, or L2 corpses added to the game- but it is fairly easy to make an undead campaign and add hand-crafted units (like these L2's you mention) into it. You'd get the units you wanted, and yet it wouldn't be added to the game. The coding is much easier than the artwork, though.
That's all I have to say- other than you shouldn't depend on any game ideas suggested by users being implemented into the game.
Proud creator of 4p- Underworld. Fascinated by Multiplayer design and balance.
I am the lone revenant of the n3t clan.
I am the lone revenant of the n3t clan.
Re: Lvl 2 ideas for wc's and bats
Oh, I'm not worried about this being accepted or not, it's just an idea.
And yes, there is a lvl 2 bat in the Burning suns, a cave bat I think it's called, and there is a "dread bat" (level 2 bat) in the Invasion from the Unknown or whatever it's called. The dread bat has regeneration actually. Poison was just an idea I threw in. Of course, the same issue is you bring up with having a unit develop poison when a base unit of the faction has it is shown in the Northerns, where the lvl 3 wolf rider has poison, and the faction already has a lvl 1 assassin that can do it.
Personally, if there was a level 2 wc's, I wouldn't think the damage would increase much, perhaps only one point, making it a 8-3. Which is the same as a strong spearman, admittedly with additional abilities.
I have the admit that the artwork would bog down a level 2 wc considerably, and the programmers probably are aiming for a level 1 limit on all level 0's. However, I think that having another level helps make level 0's more useful in a campaign setting, and tends to make them more fun in a multiplayer game since you have a goal to shoot for after the little exp it takes for the first level, most of the time.
Alternatively for the wc's progression, you could improve the wc's level 1 to have feeding and negate a need to have an improvement since the feeding ability would improve the Soulless, abeit slowly, but it's something to justify recalling them in a campaign. This would both preserve the single level-up idea regarding level 0's, and achieve the goal of being able to have a reason to ever recall soulless or give them extra kills (besides more wc's) in a multi game.
And yes, there is a lvl 2 bat in the Burning suns, a cave bat I think it's called, and there is a "dread bat" (level 2 bat) in the Invasion from the Unknown or whatever it's called. The dread bat has regeneration actually. Poison was just an idea I threw in. Of course, the same issue is you bring up with having a unit develop poison when a base unit of the faction has it is shown in the Northerns, where the lvl 3 wolf rider has poison, and the faction already has a lvl 1 assassin that can do it.
Personally, if there was a level 2 wc's, I wouldn't think the damage would increase much, perhaps only one point, making it a 8-3. Which is the same as a strong spearman, admittedly with additional abilities.
I have the admit that the artwork would bog down a level 2 wc considerably, and the programmers probably are aiming for a level 1 limit on all level 0's. However, I think that having another level helps make level 0's more useful in a campaign setting, and tends to make them more fun in a multiplayer game since you have a goal to shoot for after the little exp it takes for the first level, most of the time.
Alternatively for the wc's progression, you could improve the wc's level 1 to have feeding and negate a need to have an improvement since the feeding ability would improve the Soulless, abeit slowly, but it's something to justify recalling them in a campaign. This would both preserve the single level-up idea regarding level 0's, and achieve the goal of being able to have a reason to ever recall soulless or give them extra kills (besides more wc's) in a multi game.
Re: Lvl 2 ideas for wc's and bats
You're right. Campaign development gets helped when people have the option to add in new units. The thing is, they already have that option, and messing up the carefully crafted multiplayer balance just so they don't have to make the units themselves doesn't seem a smart thing to do. I admit, it would be entertaining to have a lot more zombies in multiplayer, but once you start adding levels to some units, you get people who want to add levels to other units, and eventually, everything's got a level 4, and level 4s aren't special any more. That's not a place I'd like to see wesnoth slowly slide into.
If you really want some level 2 corpses/bats, make the sprites, make the stats, and try to find (or build your own) era for them. Just don't think they need to be mainline.
If you really want some level 2 corpses/bats, make the sprites, make the stats, and try to find (or build your own) era for them. Just don't think they need to be mainline.
If enough people bang their heads against a brick wall, The brick wall will fall down
Re: Lvl 2 ideas for wc's and bats
Personally, I realize the "everybody wanting another level for a unit" bit, but if the level two is really a problem for wc's, you could alter them with feeding to make them worth recalling in a campaign, and it would have minimal effect on multiplayer balance, except perhaps excouraging people to give soulless kills...actually feeding would make more sense from the description of the blood bat when I think about it.Weeksy wrote:You're right. Campaign development gets helped when people have the option to add in new units. The thing is, they already have that option, and messing up the carefully crafted multiplayer balance just so they don't have to make the units themselves doesn't seem a smart thing to do. I admit, it would be entertaining to have a lot more zombies in multiplayer, but once you start adding levels to some units, you get people who want to add levels to other units, and eventually, everything's got a level 4, and level 4s aren't special any more. That's not a place I'd like to see wesnoth slowly slide into.
If you really want some level 2 corpses/bats, make the sprites, make the stats, and try to find (or build your own) era for them. Just don't think they need to be mainline.
I personally have no knowledge with how to make the sprites, and I figured people here would have ideas on the stats for a level-up, since I'm not involved in the development or balance process, I have little idea what a balanced stat setup would really be for a lvl 2, although it would majorly depend on what special abilities they have.
However, once again, a slight change to the existing blood bat and soulless (I am hestitant to suggest feeding for both) would significally boost use in a campaign and merely impact multiplayer in the occasionally kill to the odd level 1 of these units giving a minor boost to hp, a low impact in multiplayer, but major in a campaign when deciding whether it's worth it to actually recall a bat or zc.