Default Timer Settings

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tsr
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Re: Default Timer Settings

Post by tsr »

I think the problem is at least threefold:

1. The timer settings aren't saved ni preferences so the default timer settings matter more
2. Only the host can set the timer settings before anyone joins the game
3. Action bonuses are only rewarded to the attacking player

So I think this could be fixed in a three step way:
1. save the timer settings in the preferencefile from your last timed game.
2. Reward the defender action-bonuses too
3. When the mp-server interface is redone I think it would be nice for it to allow for all players to decide timer settings/map/etc (so at first you just create a new chat room that people can join and there the creator can make all the settings while still listening to her/is co-players)

/tsr

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ADmiral-N
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Re: Default Timer Settings

Post by ADmiral-N »

It might help newcomers to have a special handicap option not only for amount of gold, but also for a per round timer bonus.
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Sapient
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Re: Default Timer Settings

Post by Sapient »

tsr wrote: 1. save the timer settings in the preferencefile from your last timed game.
This can already be done, but is intentionally disabled to help users who messed up their settings.
When the timer gets its own dialog we can have a "Restore Defaults" button instead.
tsr wrote: 2. Reward the defender action-bonuses too
No... that's not an action bonus. It's something else entirely, and I'm not sure it's even desirable. Planning a (successful) attack takes far more time than planning a defense. Defensive planning time is currently supposed to be modelled with the general turn time in the per Turn bonus.
tsr wrote: 3. When the mp-server interface is redone I think it would be nice for it to allow for all players to decide timer settings/map/etc (so at first you just create a new chat room that people can join and there the creator can make all the settings while still listening to her/is co-players)
It may be hard to find someone to code that... big feature & small payoff.
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."

Becephalus
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Default timer settings

Post by Becephalus »

Moderator edit: This post was merged into the current discussion.

Ok so I just played a game with the default timer settings. AND THEY ARE STILL COMPLETELY [censored] HORRIBLE. I know I complained about this like two years ago, was told the person who set them had no idea what they should be, and to tell him what they should be. Which I did. And then they were never changed.

Anyway the action bonus mechanic doesn't make sense and never has and should be removed.

The default timer should be like 4 mins a turn flat, or something like that. Whatever it is now is completely ridiculous. I am one of the quickest players out there generally, and 50 secs a turn isn't close to enough.

Anyway just super annoyed the feature is still broken like 2 years after its implementation...

I don't know a SINGLE MP player who likes the default timer settings? Who is running this army?
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greywolfexcel
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Re: Default Timer Settings

Post by greywolfexcel »

It seems as if not a single person that has posted in this thread (aside from Sapient) has approved of the current default timer settings.

While I have seen some games that have low bonuses, these games take the time to advertise the quickness of the game, and are usually played on Isars (just yesterday I saw about 2-3 games being played like this on the server). Because these games actually advertise their time settings, I don't think the "promise" of a brisk game will be ruined (the question of most people even knowing that the default settings are always meant to encourage a brisk game is another matter entirely - I've played wesnoth for 2.5 years now and I've always thought the default settings were absurdly low, not that they actually served a purpose). These purposefully brisk games know what time settings they're going for and will change them accordingly.

Also, I played another ladder game yesterday where the host forgot to set the timer settings to the ladder recommendations, and was left with roughly 1:20 average to move my 16-17 unit army. Because I was pressured by the timer, I was unable to think and move my army at my optimum level, and was forced to ask for a draw. At the very least, I would hope that the defaults are set higher so that situations like this wouldn't happen.

Nebiros
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Re: Default Timer Settings

Post by Nebiros »

I didn't even know until seeing this thread that movement doesn't count as an "action". That makes no sense to me. Movement takes time and attention and if that's not reflected in the next turn's time budget, it just runs your time into the ground even if you're not deliberately delaying (in the time-to-take-turn sense; obviously if you're not attacking, you're probably delaying in the strategic sense of waiting for a different ToD, reinforcements, etc., but that's a completely legitimate play).

There are many matchups and maps where avoiding action on certain turns is practically mandatory.

I don't think that time for movement would be abusable; if a unit is doing nothing but moving to put time on the clock, you may have plenty of time every turn but you'll lose the game because you aren't using your units effectively. Time isn't a game deciding advantage (or at least it shouldn't be), only a way to prevent endurance matches and 15 minute AFKs. On the other hand if you have a lot of units that are moving for legitimate strategic reasons, then you damn well need more time to move them and shouldn't be penalized for it. The kind of time manipulation discussed on this thread is far worse for the game (IMO) than any number of 6, 7 or even 8 minute turns.

The only movement that shouldn't count as an action (IMO) is moving and returning to your original hex. (Moving multiple times in segments should count as one action per unit that moved.)


Also, while this isn't related to the defaults per se, I would like to see the maximum time reserve displayed in the MP screen before joining a game. Currently I think it only displays first turn time, guaranteed time per turn and time per action. If the maximum reserve is set unexpectedly low the latter two can be damn near irrelevant. I suggest 120/360 + 60 15 as the new format (it still avoids words that would need translation, and the X/Y format to mean "X out of a maximum possible Y" is used elsewhere and therefore probably readily understandable). 120/360 + 60 15 is distinguishable from 120/120 + 60 15 *before* you join the game, which is better for everyone. (The latter is a really nasty surprise, when it is a surprise. So it shouldn't be a surprise, ever.)

As for the actual default settings, I think with movement counted as an action, 120/300 + 30 10 would be adequate for most maps; really big ones might require an increase in the max time (but probably not the per action, since you'd have more actions or you wouldn't need that much more time). If you're determined not to count movement, then the base turn time would need to be significantly longer so the clock doesn't get unreasonably depleted during several turns of maneuver - say 120/300 + 60 15, or even 120/300 + 90 15. (The clock would still get depleted *some* during maneuver turns unless you completed moving your whole army inside 90 seconds, so you'd have to rely on building it up by not taking your full 15 seconds per action during turns that have some fighting. That's why I think counting movement as an action is a better solution to avoiding unreasonable timer depletion during wars of maneuver.)


P.S. I take it as axiomatic that the time system shouldn't pressure people who aren't trying to stall, or going AFK - at least on the default settings. People who are genuinely unsatisfied with their opponent thinking about their moves before making them should choose shorter-than-default times, or a less cerebral game.

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zookeeper
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Re: Default Timer Settings

Post by zookeeper »

Nebiros wrote:I don't think that time for movement would be abusable; if a unit is doing nothing but moving to put time on the clock, you may have plenty of time every turn but you'll lose the game because you aren't using your units effectively. Time isn't a game deciding advantage (or at least it shouldn't be), only a way to prevent endurance matches and 15 minute AFKs. On the other hand if you have a lot of units that are moving for legitimate strategic reasons, then you damn well need more time to move them and shouldn't be penalized for it. The kind of time manipulation discussed on this thread is far worse for the game (IMO) than any number of 6, 7 or even 8 minute turns.

The only movement that shouldn't count as an action (IMO) is moving and returning to your original hex. (Moving multiple times in segments should count as one action per unit that moved.)
Worth noting is that you couldn't give the player extra time from moves he's made until they become un-undoable, because otherwise he could move-undo-move-undo and get infinite time bonuses. You could wobble units back and forth in seek of the best position for minutes but you would not actually get anything added to your timer until you revealed some fog, attacked or recruited.

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