suggestion on drakes

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WindEnchanter
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by WindEnchanter »

I think it is good to post the replays, too. Just in case anyone want to check it out.
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elvenking_vs_wudi.gz
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undead_drake_1_4_20.gz
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anakayub
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by anakayub »

I agree. But this won't make a huge difference.
Not really, better village grabbing allows faster scouting, faster counter-planning, and faster positional/combative aggressiveness from faster deployment in addition to faster gold. Very important strategically.
Yes, he is not that aggressive, which allows me save more money.
He is very passive not just "not that aggressive". An aggressive play could have got him at least 1 village (i.e. the NW P2 village). It might also have helped him actually kill the bats + wc's at dawn, before focusing the attack on your DA's. Your recruit of wc's and bats don't really trouble drakes at night.
I agree, but that healing made some difference, too. If not for the 4 hp healing, i can finish some of the units using bat.
I won't dispute the benefits of healing, but a potential 27/30 damage at day from a fighter is better money spent (only 1 g more) than + 4 healing, as it allows you to actually kill potential units rather than try to counter damage dealt; here you survive by killing first rather than defending and countering. And remember that Drakes and Ud deliver really big blows against each other. +4 is too small to negate the damage delivered by each other.
I think that is the key point. If he attack early he still have the chance. But after that i just get more and more level 0 units.
And hence the need for aggressive play. Your opponent's passive play (due to slow village grabbing, indicated by his focus on more healing rather than damage and hesitancy in pushing forward) brought his own downfall, and doesn't indicate imbalance in regards to Drakes. :wink:
Take a breath.

WindEnchanter
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by WindEnchanter »

I got beat by drake on hornshark island today. However, i believe if i play conservatively. The outcome would be different. I am already gaining a advantage but my leader died. I shouldn't have attacked in the day. Also not a good idea to risk leader.
Attached is the replay.
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hornshark__2_4_20_drake_vs_undead.gz
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WindEnchanter
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by WindEnchanter »

Elvenking defeated me again on hornshark island. I guess i have found the solution to the undead strategy. If is simply using burners to block dark adapt and kill bats and walking corpse using burns, fighers. Gliders are used to keep my bats from taking villages. I guess it is not a balancing issue since drakes do have strategy against mass dark adapt and walking corpse. It really depend on the person who play the game. I think a bunch of fast units is very useful in this game.
I haven't tried on the hamlet map. I think it is harder for drakes on that map since there is not too much room to fly around and undead can hold the attacks better.

Here is the replay.
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hornshark_drake_vs_undead_solution.gz
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wudi
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by wudi »

I have been defeated by elvenking too. but i did gain a tiny little advantage at the beginning and having more income. and i did handle all the attack in the day except for the last one, the reason for that is because i pushed too far at night and didnt retreat. That was a huge mistake in the game.

I found fast fighters are very effective killing adepts since they are faster. . if i keep the income advantage and only defend in the day and never attack.. In theory eventually i will have more advantage since defending side are always easier than attacking side, according to the replay except for last several turns that i moved all adepts down.

Also if add some ghoul to this strategy to block adepts instead of all corpse and bats, it is then effective for fighters i believe. however, i kept WindEnchanter's promise of only level 0 and adepts.

windenchanter has posted the replay in this post earlier.

also i admit beating this strategy is not impossible. but still in theory it could work b/c of the only defend with income advantage. Also i am not as good as Elvenking, if Elvenking used windenchanter's strategy and i use drake, probably i can never win.

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TL
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by TL »

The level 0 route is a pretty basic turtle strategy; it's not especially strong to begin with, but the longer you go the more powerful it gets. It's fairly difficult to provide an effective deterrent during the first few day cycles, though; your walking corpses have terrible mobility and your relatively fast adepts are all hiding behind them, so the drakes can run rings around you. That is, assuming they didn't opt for a straight-up blitz, which I've seen pulled off with reasonably good success against this sort of strategy.

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F8 Binds...
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by F8 Binds... »

WildEnchanter wrote:I shouldn't have attacked in the day. Also not a good idea to risk leader.
By reading this statement of yours, you're making it obvious you are not familiar with the game enough to make a solid statement about the apparent imbalance of drakes. I suggest, as others have, that you seriously learn how to play the game effectively before blaming losses / wins on the factional matchups. Among the first things you learn are the Time of Day Cycle and the importance of using your leader, but not risking him without reason.
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Savannah
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by Savannah »

usually i don't post. but this got my attention. Drakes is my favorite side, and i played it succesfully on the ladder the last week to got the fifth place. I'm a whiner, really, i always get angry with luck and imbalances.

of course that's just me, but i don't feel drakes have any problems against undead on most maps, there is one exception, and is sablestone delta.
Silverhead crossing can be very though if you don't know the matchup deeply. But there is plenty of strong moves for drakes to do so no problem there.
Den of onis could be troublesome but played this map and matchup very few times, so i don't know.

What i'm sure that in hornshark island, the matchup is more than fine. i'm always talking about 1v1 map that are accepted on the eyerouge league.

So if you want to make your point, i suggest trying sablestone delta against good players and see what happens, doubt you have a shoot on any other 1v1 mainline map
.

dlyrical
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by dlyrical »

Drakes r not that bad although I don't use them because of my play style. You can wipe them out quickly though because of their defence and by them being so expense u won't b able to recruit units for them like some of the cheaper factions like orcs.

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BIG_LIZARD_PWNZ
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by BIG_LIZARD_PWNZ »

dlyrical wrote:Drakes r not that bad although I don't use them because of my play style. You can wipe them out quickly though because of their defence and by them being so expense u won't b able to recruit units for them like some of the cheaper factions like orcs.
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PWND.

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Wurmish
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by Wurmish »

I admit I still am learning how to play Wesnoth on a competitive scale, and I still make some mistakes, but I noticed earlier that there was a request for something resembling a wins/loss ratio for someone who plays Drakes often. This might seem rather inflated, but bear in mind that I'm still rather new, and that this is an estimate, but I have definitely won 3 games, (2 back on 1.2, 1 on 1.4) and lost what feels like countless more, although in reality it's probably about 40. About 5 of those losses were close, with the RNG having more to do with the loss in my opinion. Even though I've had Wesnoth for awhile and enjoy playing it, I have had a tendency to avoid 'normal' games in favor of scenarios (although I'm trying to cut back so I can attempt to be a better player) partially because of this discouraging record.
Perhaps one of my problems is the casual attitude I've adopted to avoid becoming a sore loser. Competitive people, as far as I know, can't have the laid-back attitude I have. As long as I have fun, it doesn't matter if I win or lose. The fun is not the winning or losing, though I admit the few victories I've had were very sweetly savored, given that they are far and few in between. But I want to be able to play with a decent record while still not becoming... one of those people that criticize others for the occasional human error, or think that everyone should know how to counter X strategy, and they strongly voice their opinions, especially if they're winning.
Ok, I'm done with my minor rant, suggestions and constructive criticism welcome.
Currently quietly developing a small faction as part of my master plan to develop an entire era independently. Art is the only concerning point for me.

Velensk
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by Velensk »

I think you are missing something about compeditivness in wesnoth, wenoth is almost designed for people who are laid back in their competitivness, but play competitivly anyway (and yes this is very possible). It's funnest when everyone plays their best, however getting worked up about loseing is a sure way to not like wesnoth because occasionaly your good plans will be turned to bad plans by the results of the dice, or other things. An additude of good sportsmanship is the best one for this game, because you will lose games even if you are very good, however if you wish to improve then you'll have more fun, and given enough time/thought you will improve.

That being said I don't know why you are having problems or what these problems are, you did not explain that. What you did say is that you have a bad record. This makes it hard to help you. Provideing a few replays might make helping you easier.
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Wurmish
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by Wurmish »

I don't do replays very often, but I'll try to get a few thrown together, and I'll try not to do better or worse because I'm going to put them up for the whole community to see. As for attitude, there is definitely something missing here. I'm not sure how to be competitive and laid-back about it... most of the games that I dominate in (not TBS certainly) the reason is because I fully immerse my attention into winning. I'm quite certain that's not the intended playing style for Wesnoth though >>

And sorry for being so vague earlier, I tend to make too many generalizations in the effort of writing as little as possible :P I'm lazy ever since AP English but that's neither here nor there.
Currently quietly developing a small faction as part of my master plan to develop an entire era independently. Art is the only concerning point for me.

Velensk
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by Velensk »

There is a saying I once heard "Play to win, but it's the playing that's important, not the winning".

I can't realy explain it any better than that, if you don't get it, then you don't get it.

Wesnoth is not like starcraft where turning your attention away for a few seconds could be lethal. You could be reading a book and playing at the same time (I do this frequently), but just because you arn't up to your ears in it does not mean that you can't play well. You just have to take the time to think, make your plans, execute them in the best possible manor, and not get upset if it does not go the way you planned.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

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Wintermute
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by Wintermute »

Wurmish wrote:I admit I still am learning how to play Wesnoth on a competitive scale, and I still make some mistakes, but I noticed earlier that there was a request for something resembling a wins/loss ratio for someone who plays Drakes often. This might seem rather inflated, but bear in mind that I'm still rather new, and that this is an estimate, but I have definitely won 3 games, (2 back on 1.2, 1 on 1.4) and lost what feels like countless more, although in reality it's probably about 40. About 5 of those losses were close, with the RNG having more to do with the loss in my opinion. Even though I've had Wesnoth for awhile and enjoy playing it, I have had a tendency to avoid 'normal' games in favor of scenarios (although I'm trying to cut back so I can attempt to be a better player) partially because of this discouraging record.
When I first started playing Wesnoth online I was blown away by how "obviously" overpowered drakes were. Clearly they could kill anything else, and I lost my early games playing against them. Thus I decided to play some drakes, and lost I don't know how many games, more or less in a row. As I played more ('normal games' as you say, will be what you want, if you really want to improve) I figured out how to make drakes work in ways that I didn't understand before. I would encourage you to watch some games (or replays) of people who know what they are doing play drakes. When you see a game played by a really good drake player, it can seem like the other guy never stood a chance. I do not claim to be such a player, but I have learned enough about them to feel comfortable playing them in any (normal game) situation.

It is worth noting that I don't consider choosing drakes 'normal'. In other words, you have to play random. Drakes more than others will be at a real disadvantage if you choose them, and your opponent knows that. Also, playing (any faction) on Isar's Cross is something you should avoid if you want to improve.
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