suggestion on drakes

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wudi
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suggestion on drakes

Post by wudi »

Hi everyone, i dont know if i posted in a right section.
I have been playing multi on official server for quite some time now. i have some thought on drakes. This faction have some severe weakness and it is difficult for them to versus some faction in a small map.

One example would be in here.
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21005

1. I think it is impossible for drakes to beat undead in a map of this size. all units fear cold is difficult to face massive adepts and walking corpse. (Please check out the replay there. i think it is IMPOSSIBLE to beat UD not difficult to beat).

2. I think it is difficult for drakes to beat loyalist in a small map like "isar's cross". On a small map drake's high mobility is not as useful and troops are very expensive. When versus loyalist, cheap massive spearman would be killers for drake. Only clasher can beat spearman but not always because of its lower defence, and it also has higher cost. Cheap archer can kill clasher easily. i think everyone agrees $14 spearman is a nightmare for $21 burner. Also at night, skrimsher has too little hp compare to spearman, spearman won't have much of a disadvantage especially when defending. also they are cheaper than skrimisher. in a day there is no way for skrimisher to beat spearman even though it has resistence to pierce. so skrimisher to beat massive spearman is hard too.

that was some of my thought on drakes. i think it is a balancing issue. i've been reading in this forum and some people has the same thought too. on a bigger map yes drakes' high mobility is useful but it is really limited in a small map. and the mobility are all factorred into unit's cost but we dont use them in a small map.

WindEnchanter
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by WindEnchanter »

I think maybe saurians need some defence for cold and more defence vs spearman.
Or perhaps have one more unit type for drake that have high defence for cold.
Maybe... eh... Mountain Saurian??? got 30 + defence to cold.

wudi wrote:Hi everyone, i dont know if i posted in a right section.
I have been playing multi on official server for quite some time now. i have some thought on drakes. This faction have some severe weakness and it is difficult for them to versus some faction in a small map.

One example would be in here.
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21005

1. I think it is impossible for drakes to beat undead in a map of this size. all units fear cold is difficult to face massive adepts and walking corpse. (Please check out the replay there. i think it is IMPOSSIBLE to beat UD not difficult to beat).

2. I think it is difficult for drakes to beat loyalist in a small map like "isar's cross". On a small map drake's high mobility is not as useful and troops are very expensive. When versus loyalist, cheap massive spearman would be killers for drake. Only clasher can beat spearman but not always because of its lower defence, and it also has higher cost. Cheap archer can kill clasher easily. i think everyone agrees $14 spearman is a nightmare for $21 burner. Also at night, skrimsher has too little hp compare to spearman, spearman won't have much of a disadvantage especially when defending. also they are cheaper than skrimisher. in a day there is no way for skrimisher to beat spearman even though it has resistence to pierce. so skrimisher to beat massive spearman is hard too.

that was some of my thought on drakes. i think it is a balancing issue. i've been reading in this forum and some people has the same thought too. on a bigger map yes drakes' high mobility is useful but it is really limited in a small map. and the mobility are all factorred into unit's cost but we dont use them in a small map.

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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by megane »

wudi wrote:that was some of my thought on drakes. i think it is a balancing issue. i've been reading in this forum and some people has the same thought too. on a bigger map yes drakes' high mobility is useful but it is really limited in a small map. and the mobility are all factorred into unit's cost but we dont use them in a small map.
Then play on a map that's balanced. Like, say, not Isar's Cross. Also, Drakes have this handy unit sneakily hidden in there between those Burners and Skirmishers; it's called a "Saurian Augur," maybe you've seen one?
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wudi
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by wudi »

megane wrote:Then play on a map that's balanced. Like, say, not Isar's Cross. Also, Drakes have this handy unit sneakily hidden in there between those Burners and Skirmishers; it's called a "Saurian Augur," maybe you've seen one?
Isar's cross is one of the most popular map in official server (if not the most popular one). on such a popular map with one faction have advantage over another is a balance issue i think. and not just isar's cross. drakes generally have disadvantage versus loyalist on a small sized map.

and yes i like saurian augur very much especially for its heal purpose and magical attack. skrimishers and augurs are extremely useful if used wisely, and it requires less exp to level up. Personally i like them more than drakes.

However, i am just saying that on a small map versus loyalist, it has disadvantage versus massive spearman and some archer.

i tested right away and here's the result in the attached file.

in a day, two spearman versus two clasher one on one on grassland, one side spearman alived with abt 1/3 hp left, another side clasher alived with about 1/3 hp left.

i choose grassland because i think it is fair. spearman has 40 defence on grassland, clasher has 30 defence on grassland.

if place them on hill or forest, spearman 50 defence clasher 40 defence. on mountain and in village spearman 60 defence. the maximum defence clasher can get is 40. so i think it is fair to place them on a grass land with 40 defence vs 30 defence. that's fair enough for clasher.

so i'll say spearman tie with clasher.

and then at NIGHT, two skrimisher versus two spearman, because of the little hp skrimisher have, one skrimisher killed spearman and another side spearman killed skrimisher. the alived units both have very little hp left.

i choose grassland too when they both have 40 defence. on hill or forest skrimisher is 60 defence and spearman is 50 defence. in village spearman is 60 defence but skrimisher is 50 defence. i know it is not very fair to let them fight with the same defence because skrimisher does have a better defence generally. but that fight is AT NIGHT. With spearman -25% and skrimisher +25%. That's a 50% difference. skrimisher cant beat spearman in a day. so i'll say spearman tie with skrimisher at night. but generally spearman would defence at night so most likely it is in a village with 60% defence. it can easily beat skrimisher in day so why bother doing it at night? so spearman does have advantage over skrimisher.

i did not test on augur and burner versus spearman one on one, but i believe it is not much of a difference. spearman can AT LEAST tie with them.

And spearman can for sure beat a drake fighter since it has less hp than clasher and weaker attack than clasher, also fears pierce.

Overall, the only unit spearman might lose to drakes is its clasher. but it is not always a lose.

In real game spearman would melee attack burner and augur. archer would range attack clasher and skrimisher. the other side augur and burner would range attack spearman. clasher and skrimisher would melee attack archer.

but the problem is... all drakes are much more expensive... if the above one on one drakes can tie with loyalist (i wouldnt say so since i think loyalist have advantage.. but we'll just say they can tie)...

HOWEVER, what about add one more or two more spearman to loyalist? that extra unit would surely give loyalist advantage. and on a small map drakes mobility is somehow limited so there might not be enough room for drakes to have many different tactics. they have to face more spearman and archer. it is then hard for drakes for sure.

so i'll say my argument of loyalist have advantage over drakes on a small map is valid.
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turin
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by turin »

wudi wrote:Isar's cross is one of the most popular map in official server (if not the most popular one). on such a popular map with one faction have advantage over another is a balance issue i think. and not just isar's cross. drakes generally have disadvantage versus loyalist on a small sized map.
Wrong; Isar's Cross is not balanced, is known to be not balanced, and cannot really be balanced - it's simply too small. It's only left in the mappack because it's so popular.
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zookeeper
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by zookeeper »

turin wrote:
wudi wrote:Isar's cross is one of the most popular map in official server (if not the most popular one). on such a popular map with one faction have advantage over another is a balance issue i think. and not just isar's cross. drakes generally have disadvantage versus loyalist on a small sized map.
Wrong; Isar's Cross is not balanced, is known to be not balanced, and cannot really be balanced - it's simply too small. It's only left in the mappack because it's so popular.
Which means you should complain to the people hosting Isar's and/or play on other maps if you want a more balanced match.

Or maybe propose it be removed entirely.

wudi
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by wudi »

turin wrote:
wudi wrote:Isar's cross is one of the most popular map in official server (if not the most popular one). on such a popular map with one faction have advantage over another is a balance issue i think. and not just isar's cross. drakes generally have disadvantage versus loyalist on a small sized map.
Wrong; Isar's Cross is not balanced, is known to be not balanced, and cannot really be balanced - it's simply too small. It's only left in the mappack because it's so popular.
okay.. Forget about isar's cross, on a general small map. Do you think my other arguments is still valid?

and also did you check out that drake's sure loss to undead on a medium map?
I cant find any good tactic with drake versus undead on medium map and drake versus loyalist on a small map.

check this out:

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21005

WindEnchanter
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by WindEnchanter »

Please see my post, it's not on isar's cross, it is on hamlets.

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21005

If you think drake is balanced on that map please let me know and reply your strategy in my post.
turin wrote:
wudi wrote:Isar's cross is one of the most popular map in official server (if not the most popular one). on such a popular map with one faction have advantage over another is a balance issue i think. and not just isar's cross. drakes generally have disadvantage versus loyalist on a small sized map.
Wrong; Isar's Cross is not balanced, is known to be not balanced, and cannot really be balanced - it's simply too small. It's only left in the mappack because it's so popular.

WindEnchanter
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by WindEnchanter »

I guess a better way to support my point is this.
Please list the maps that you think is balanced enough for drakes.
I will challenge drake players on that map and post replay back.

wudi
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by wudi »

i'm not trying to say the game is not good or anything. i love the game a lot and i just want to give my feedback and my opinion..

i just want to make a point that drakes have several weakness and sometimes it is hard for them to versus certain faction in some maps. maybe some small change to drakes can be made in next version to make it better. Just like the changes made on bat.

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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by Noy »

WindEnchanter wrote:I guess a better way to support my point is this.
Please list the maps that you think is balanced enough for drakes.
I will challenge drake players on that map and post replay back.
I'm not going to go and argue Drakes vs whatever on X map because I've done so enough times, and played enough games to prove people otherwise.

No offense, if you don't know which are the balanced official maps, then you're almost certainly not as good enough to prove that drakes are unbalanced. Seriously, little do you think people play the default era? There are people who have been playing 1v1s and 2v2s two to three matches a day for the past three years; and you think after playing after several months you magically figured out they are unbalanced?

You might want to reconsider whether you have enough experience to make an balanced judgement of this type
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by Noy »

wudi wrote: i just want to make a point that drakes have several weakness and sometimes it is hard for them to versus certain faction in some maps. maybe some small change to drakes can be made in next version to make it better. Just like the changes made on bat.
The changes on the bat had NOTHING to do with its factional balance. Actually scouts are not balanced according to the factional balance; they are balanced vis a vis other scouts. And for the Undead the faction already had another scout; the Ghost.
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by WindEnchanter »

Well, actually i have a idea which maps are balanced, however it is a good idea to get other people's list so that they would not later say that the map I played is not balanced.

I think certainly there are people much more skillful than me playing wesnoth, they play more and may have more experiences. The fact is that there could be other factors keep people from realizing the balance issue with drakes. Among all of the players, who play drakes very often? Also is there anyone keeping their record of how often they lose playing drakes? Also even if they win all the time, it could be that they are against new players that are not skillful enough. I would love to know who is a master drake player and to see if they have a strategy against mine. If you think only experienced players have a say in the balancing issue, I will wait and see if anyone actually respond to my strategy.


Noy wrote:
WindEnchanter wrote:I guess a better way to support my point is this.
Please list the maps that you think is balanced enough for drakes.
I will challenge drake players on that map and post replay back.
I'm not going to go and argue Drakes vs whatever on X map because I've done so enough times, and played enough games to prove people otherwise.

No offense, if you don't know which are the balanced official maps, then you're almost certainly not as good enough to prove that drakes are unbalanced. Seriously, little do you think people play the default era? There are people who have been playing 1v1s and 2v2s two to three matches a day for the past three years; and you think after playing after several months you magically figured out they are unbalanced?

You might want to reconsider whether you have enough experience to make an balanced judgement of this type

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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by anakayub »

WindEnchanter wrote:Well, actually i have a idea which maps are balanced, however it is a good idea to get other people's list so that they would not later say that the map I played is not balanced.

I think certainly there are people much more skillful than me playing wesnoth, they play more and may have more experiences. The fact is that there could be other factors keep people from realizing the balance issue with drakes. Among all of the players, who play drakes very often? Also is there anyone keeping their record of how often they lose playing drakes? Also even if they win all the time, it could be that they are against new players that are not skillful enough. I would love to know who is a master drake player and to see if they have a strategy against mine. If you think only experienced players have a say in the balancing issue, I will wait and see if anyone actually respond to my strategy.
There's no need to get a list from other players. All of the official competitive maps are balanced as far as I know, except Isar's, which is included because of its immense popularity. When subtracting Isar's from your arguments, there is no real argument to respond to.

And there really is no player who plays drakes very often. You'll find that all of the players of decent and better skills play random.

Regarding your game you posted:
Your opponent did several mistakes. I only watched at a glance till turn 9.

1) I thought that he could've gotten at least 1 more village(s) by turn 2 with a better recruit pattern (this was from a glance). He wasted turns capturing all of them.

2) Despite wasting turns, he was in a good position to play aggressively. He was so passive against the wc's and bats at night, when he could've just safely pressed forward. I'm a passive player, but that was too much. He could've made a massive attack at dawn had he been more aggressive, with no DA's in sight at all. Or even captured at least 1/2 villages during night with no problems.

3) Getting another augur to use at err, day? Augurs are useful only against wc's. And healing isn't needed against slow Ud. Attack and run back to heal on villages. He should've bought another fighter.

4) He committed suicide on the day attack by killing too late and killing too few before running with half of the troops. Drakes vs Ud are all about killing many and hard; a half-hearted attempt to attack is better replaced with "no" attack and saving money to attack at the next dawn. It's not as if your Ud could have chased him then had he decided to run away (bats don't count). Of course, this would not have been a problem had he started an attack at dawn or even started ranging at 2nd night, rendering the bat/wc wall useless.

The better players than me can certainly point out many other mistakes or if I was wrong at looking at the game.
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Re: suggestion on drakes

Post by WindEnchanter »

Thank you very much for posting.

1) I thought that he could've gotten at least 1 more village(s) by turn 2 with a better recruit pattern (this was from a glance). He wasted turns capturing all of them.
I agree. But this won't make a huge difference.
2) Despite wasting turns, he was in a good position to play aggressively. He was so passive against the wc's and bats at night, when he could've just safely pressed forward. I'm a passive player, but that was too much. He could've made a massive attack at dawn had he been more aggressive, with no DA's in sight at all. Or even captured at least 1/2 villages during night with no problems.
Yes, he is not that aggressive, which allows me save more money.
3) Getting another augur to use at err, day? Augurs are useful only against wc's. And healing isn't needed against slow Ud. Attack and run back to heal on villages. He should've bought another fighter.
I agree, but that healing made some difference, too. If not for the 4 hp healing, i can finish some of the units using bat.
4) He committed suicide on the day attack by killing too late and killing too few before running with half of the troops. Drakes vs Ud are all about killing many and hard; a half-hearted attempt to attack is better replaced with "no" attack and saving money to attack at the next dawn. It's not as if your Ud could have chased him then had he decided to run away (bats don't count). Of course, this would not have been a problem had he started an attack at dawn or even started ranging at 2nd night, rendering the bat/wc wall useless.
I think that is the key point. If he attack early he still have the chance. But after that i just get more and more level 0 units.

I played 1 game and watched another one on hornshark island tonight. I win the first one. But the second match wudi vs elvenking was lost. It does not show much as both side made some mistakes.

I think i can join the ladder next week and challenge people to play wish me. I will use only dark adapts and level 0 units.

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