Poacher and Trapper: perhaps the worst unit in the game

[c2p]

It's funny and curious when you find something in Wesnoth that everyone you meet agrees on: but in some cases, it's kind of mindboggling too.

I speak, of course, of that hairy armpit of a unit, the poacher.

Compared to the two most analogous sister-units: the loyalist archer and the skel archer, it becomes clear that this unit is just a weaker version.

It has attacks akin to the loy archer, just much less powerful. (!)

It otherwise moves identically on terrain to the archer. And in fact, the sole advantages over the archer seems to be that it's marginally better at hiding in swamps (50%) and forests, plus he levels a bit quicker.

Wouldn't it make sense for him to at least have melee attacks that were as good as those of the archer? Or at least to have it move through swamps at 2mp, in stead of 3mp?

[zookeeper]

Wouldn't it make sense for him to at least have melee attacks that were as good as those of the archer? Or at least to have it move through swamps at 2mp, in stead of 3mp?

At least I can't think of a reason why. You haven't given one either, in case you didn't notice.

[Blueblaze]

Play against the Drakes without Poacher/Trappers.

[governor]

Units are not balanced vs other units. Factions are balanced vs factions. So comparing a unit to two similar units will show its weaknesses, but that doesn't mean it needs to be changed.

[Weeksy]

It's factions v. factions, not unit v. unit. If you think the knalgan alliance is imbalanced, bring that up. If you simply don't like the unit, don't use it. If you just want your proposed swamp mp change to be implemented, you don't even have to wait! It's already there, and has been there since November 2006.

[Aethaeryn]

I think the worst unit in the game is Caravan (from SoF campaign).

[TL]

I don't think the gap is quite as large as you make it out to be, as the defense bonuses and rapid leveling are very nice perks. Even though bowmen and skeleton archers may very well be better units, however, in MP play I tend to use poachers more often than the other two. Their forest defense is a hugely useful contribution to knalgans, whereas bowmen/skeleton archers usually don't have that much in the way of unique offerings except in specific match-ups where their ranged pierce becomes important (loyalists and drakes, mainly).

[nataS]

I often buy a poacher when playing knalgans. They are good for several reasons. Let's list the advantages for the poacher over bowman.

• Better defense on forest and swamp terrains. This is quite a significant advantage.
• Poacher is a chaotic unit in a team of neutral units.
• Bowman costs 15 gold while poacher costs only 14.
• Poacher requires less experience to become a lvl 2 unit (poacher: 20xp, bowman: 27xp - default 70% setting).
• Having four strikes makes it good for finishing off low hp units.

[Wintermute]

It otherwise moves identically on terrain to the archer. And in fact, the sole advantages over the archer seems to be that it's marginally better at hiding in swamps (50%) and forests, plus he levels a bit quicker.

your talking about a unit that is cheaper than an archer as if it were supposed to be better than an archer? You have just pointed out two advantages that it has over an archer! also: at peak ToD, the difference in maximum ranged damage is one point, setting aside unit resistances and such.

Wouldn't it make sense for him to at least have melee attacks that were as good as those of the archer? Or at least to have it move through swamps at 2mp, in stead of 3mp?

You might want to look at the movetype again... Perhaps if you played with them more you would get a better feel for them.

As already mentioned, units are not balanced against each other, factions are. If the poacher were the only ranged unit in the knalgan quiver then it might seem weak, but pair it with a thunderer - a unit with very different and dare I say complementary strengths - and you have a pretty solid ranged presence as a faction.

[Neoskel]

I pronounce c2p's complaint PWNED.

[c2p]

I pronounce Neoskel's mom PWNED.

I was complaining about the poachers MP on swamp based on a previous version, I concede that it's been updated in present ones.

I'm not really convinced that units are normally measured in the context of factions to anything like the proposed extent, though I understand your argument, because such is not the case with the spearman/skel/grunt/fighter/fighter/whelp, their strengths are roughly corresponding to their cost (respective of ToD, and perks).

I think the poacher should do more damage in melee, perhaps 3 attacks in stead of 2 - they're basically on par with mages as it is. Besides it not making much sense re: their proposed wilderness lifestyle, it makes them basically defenceless to attack.

[hiro hito]

What is amasing with the poacher: with 2 moves on forest/hill, 3 moves on mountain/swamp, even with 6 moves points,he is still the slowest unit of the knalgan faction! (Except on flat ground but who play on grassland? )

[Wintermute]

I'm not really convinced that units are normally measured in the context of factions to anything like the proposed extent, though I understand your argument, because such is not the case with the spearman/skel/grunt/fighter/fighter/whelp, their strengths are roughly corresponding to their cost (respective of ToD, and perks).

This is something that you should become convinced of. Spend some time hanging out on the the multiplayer IRC channel: #Wesnoth-mp if you are unconvinced. My guess is that you will not have much luck claiming that poachers are "the worst unit in the game". It's not exactly evidence, but if you look at the How to Play Knalgans guide, it pretty much says "buy one or more of these guys against any other faction". The reasons for this are not that the poacher is an "awesome" unit, but that the Knalgan faction has serious weaknesses (forest defense for example) like every other faction, and units like the poacher are used to shore up those weak points.

I think the poacher should do more damage in melee, perhaps 3 attacks in stead of 2 - they're basically on par with mages as it is. Besides it not making much sense re: their proposed wilderness lifestyle, it makes them basically defenceless to attack.

You have mentioned that archers and poachers are already "nearly identical", and you have also indicated elsewhere that "most units have advantages and disadvantages". This is by design! It's boring when units are overly similar. You seem to be advocating turning the poacher into an archer... Why?

Finally, unit vs. unit comparisons tend to lead to an arms race. If the poacher, which is already almost as good at ranged combat as an archer and has several great perks over an archer right now, gets a boost to it's melee attack, then suddenly it is BETTER than an archer and also cheaper. The posts after such a change might be "why don't archers get that great forest and swamp defense... poachers are better and cheaper!"

In any case, lets play some more games. I'm optimistic that I can persuade you of the value of poachers in the Knalgan army. Perhaps with you being Knalgans and not using them

[HODOR]

HODOR

[Noy]

I pronounce Neoskel's mom PWNED.

What a great come back; how old are you? Nine? Given the lack of intellectual development you just displayed, maybe My Little Pony Playtime website is more suited to your intelligence level than wesnoth.

I was complaining about the poachers MP on swamp based on a previous version, I concede that it's been updated in present ones.

Umm nice try at weaseling out of it, but maybe if you did a iota of research you might have found out how ridiculous you look saying this. Unless you've been clinging to playing 1.1.2 for like the past two years, you're lying out of your teeth. Not that any change to swamp movement would really make a significant difference to how one might use the unit either.

I'm not really convinced that units are normally measured in the context of factions to anything like the proposed extent, though I understand your argument, because such is not the case with the spearman/skel/grunt/fighter/fighter/whelp, their strengths are roughly corresponding to their cost (respective of ToD, and perks).

Talking out of your ass again? This just shows how little you know or care to know about balance or the process to achieve it (which is important to understanding how to play factions.) Factions are completely balanced vs other factions, not units. If units were balanced against each other, then the game would be quite stale and boring, since you would have variations of the same unit types, just with different attack strengths and numbers of attacks. Balance is done completely about how vulnerable units are vs other factions, and what are their response to it.

I think the poacher should do more damage in melee, perhaps 3 attacks in stead of 2 - they're basically on par with mages as it is. Besides it not making much sense re: their proposed wilderness lifestyle, it makes them basically defenceless to attack.

Maybe you should take less effort at trying to make infantile retorts, and more time on your basic grammar and spelling.... that way we might be able to understand how poor your ideas really are.