Bob's RPG Era (now with achievements!)

[Clonkinator]

oh, one of my vagabonds had this icon on top of him - what does it mean?

That sign shows that he's using the evasion-combat-stance. His power suffers, but he gains +10% of terrain defense while it is selected.

[Bob_The_Mighty]

Thanks for the feedback, Rhuvaen. Glad you liked it.

This is really well done!
It's really hard to play with these characters, though. I think it should be easier to get a basic melee attack for rangers or magicians - it's tough to survive with the DA effect of not having a weak melee attack. A magician must buy a warrior level and the weapon skill for 10 points total just to get a weak melee attack...

I might change this. Actually, I was thinking of giving every class-advance a unique skill which would mean advancing to level 1 warrior would automatically give you a melee weapon skill.

One more thing I find slightly confusing is that all the damage is standardized - I mean all weapons seem to deal similar damage - it only depends on the class. I would like to see weapon-based damage and attacks that are modified by the skills. Also I think it would be good if one could recreate characters with attacks similar to the existing units - they tend to lean to have less damage per attack but a high number of attacks at the moment.

All in all I feel that improving your character should modify either the total damage, or the way it splits up into number of attacks, so that multiplicative synergies are eliminated. Many custom scenarios with unit improvement have this min-maxing aspect as a feature (and I bet many players like it in the same way that people shop for bargains IRL), but I don't think it's a hallmark of a good design.

Can you explain a bit more what you mean by all this?

How can a ranger increase bow damage without becoming a mage? That seemed odd.

I split the damage/attacks of melee/ranged between the four classes for the sake of balancing them. Maybe the magician's clarity of mind improves your aim in the same way as sedatives help snipers, whatever. It is odd, yes.

[jb]

well Bob, you already know most of my thoughts about this, but here is a quick thought I had about the armor damage.

Right now you have it based on -1%/hit. Some hits are more damaging than others...maybe you can make it based on HP damage. For example -1%/15HP of damage.

[Velensk]

Another bug, Diseased does not appear to work.

Another suggestion, either decrease the character point cost of the hp increase, or make to hp increase more substacial, 3 hp is not very much of an inprovment compared to the other abilitys that cost 4 character points.

[megane]

Dunno if you want it, but it kinda grated on me that the icon for the +10 char pts. AMLA is a toughness heart, so:

[Bob_The_Mighty]

Hmm, thanks for the icon - but where would I use it? You don't get to select an amla choice in this era.

Diseased is fixed now, Velensk.

I agree armour is too fiddly, I will change it. Maybe each combat (not everytime you get hit, just after every fight) there is a small chance your armour loses 5%. How does that sound?

By the way, I have made LoC work with the inventory now. So if you play the new version of Labyrinth of Champions with the new version of this era, there will be items to pick up, etc.

[megane]

Hmm, thanks for the icon - but where would I use it? You don't get to select an amla choice in this era.

It shows up next to their XP count; at least it does in DFool theme.

[Clonkinator]

I agree armour is too fiddly, I will change it. Maybe each combat (not everytime you get hit, just after every fight) there is a small chance your armour loses 5%. How does that sound?

That doesn't sound very good...
I'd prefer it to stay like it is, but maybe only a 25%/50%/X% chance that the armor gets damaged on hit. Also, imo it would make more sense if only blade, pierce and impact resistances would go down, as those usually are the physical resistances. And couldn't you make the starting resistances be +10% of what they're now? Since if your armor is really damaged and you have -70% resistance on everything, well, ouch, that really hurts.

[Rhuvaen]

One more thing I find slightly confusing is that all the damage is standardized - I mean all weapons seem to deal similar damage - it only depends on the class. I would like to see weapon-based damage and attacks that are modified by the skills. [...]

All in all I feel that improving your character should modify either the total damage, or the way it splits up into number of attacks, so that multiplicative synergies are eliminated. Many custom scenarios with unit improvement have this min-maxing aspect as a feature (and I bet many players like it in the same way that people shop for bargains IRL), but I don't think it's a hallmark of a good design.

Can you explain a bit more what you mean by all this?

Yes. What I mean is that currently, all the main weapons start out at 5-4 or 6-3 (+1/-1 for damage, possibly). This discards a lot of the differentiation between standard units attacks - like a HI's mace or an elven fighter's sword.

This system also treats the weapon as part of the character - i.e. a thuggish vagabond cannot pick up a sword and fight with it, for instance (at reduced skill). This makes the class stereotypes rather strict and repetitive from game to game.

Instead, I think it would be nice to have a system where the characters were free to use any weapon they found. The effectiveness of the weapon would be adjusted by the characters' skill in that weapon type. In addition, there would be a -20% CTH (minimum of 20%) 'special' applied to all weapons the character is unskilled in.

The current system lets the player increase damage and number of attacks separately. This is what I called the "min-maxing" aspect. In Colosseum, for instance, buying number of attacks for the thunderers ranged attack would be a famous move. Or if you had an elvish fighter, you'd get more out of buying melee damage than a HI. This is perhaps the reason you chose to standardize damage (and offset the bias between number of attacks and damage adjustment). But a (for your era) typical 6-5 attack means that it matters less if you fight a troll at 14-2 or a lieutenant at 9-3. You lose the distinction between enemies indirectly and between the different characters' modes of attack directly.

Dealing with the specifics of buying +damage or *attacks feels a bit like tuning an engine, more technical than necessary. It naturally leads the player to consider the arithmetically best choice and think 'out-of-character'.

Now compare this to a system where the character simply chose to increase the skill in a given weapon class. Each weapon would react a little differently to higher skill: a mace would quickly rise in damage, but only occasionally add an attack. A dagger would rapidly give more attacks, with less damage increase overall. All in all this could be made to somewhat resemble to relation of damage to number of attacks of existing units. That means the characters fit right in with the standard enemies again.

I have some stats/formulas that I worked on earlier, but those lend themselves better to code than to verbal explanation.


p.s. I played this another time, and while I had fun with the 'diseased' trait, I do think the traits are quite unbalanced. A 'clubfoot' can be offset by visiting the shop in tLoC, or buying a speed increase, while Psyco or Diseased cannot be undone, and are a great danger when they kick in in the middle of a tight situation. (I had a mace-wielding vagabond go berserk vs the scorpions - at 1 damage per attack - it wasn't fun )

p.p.s. there was a bug with the run stance. All monsters would get a run icon if the stance was changed (or changed back, can't remember).

[Bob_The_Mighty]

Thanks again for the feedback Rhuvean!

Instead, I think it would be nice to have a system where the characters were free to use any weapon they found.

Ken oh's rpg era does exactly that. I shied away from the idea of allowing units to use multiple weapon types partly to make a distinction between his era and mine, and also because I wanted to stay faithful to the weapons depicted in the unit sprites. But, yes it would be nice. Any ideas?

The effectiveness of the weapon would be adjusted by the characters' skill in that weapon type. In addition, there would be a -20% CTH (minimum of 20%) 'special' applied to all weapons the character is unskilled in.

This is a good idea.

Dealing with the specifics of buying +damage or *attacks feels a bit like tuning an engine, more technical than necessary. It naturally leads the player to consider the arithmetically best choice and think 'out-of-character'.

I see your point and I'm glad that you consider this a problem. How about having a 'weaponskill' that could be increased 4 times - each time adding to the stats of the weapon in a way consistent with the weapon type? So, boosting your 'mace' weaponskill would add damage, whereas boosting sword weaponskill would add damage and eventually one or two attacks.

All in all this could be made to somewhat resemble to relation of damage to number of attacks of existing units. That means the characters fit right in with the standard enemies again.

I have some stats/formulas that I worked on earlier, but those lend themselves better to code than to verbal explanation.

Again, Ken Oh's system was based entirely on a complicated formula to replicate existing units. I wanted to let players create new variations and odd combinations - which is why you can advance in more than one character class (and end up with a thief with healing powers, etc).

p.s. I played this another time, and while I had fun with the 'diseased' trait, I do think the traits are quite unbalanced. A 'clubfoot' can be offset by visiting the shop in tLoC, or buying a speed increase, while Psyco or Diseased cannot be undone, and are a great danger when they kick in in the middle of a tight situation. (I had a mace-wielding vagabond go berserk vs the scorpions - at 1 damage per attack - it wasn't fun )

I am very fond of the traits, as I think they're fun and add flavour. Maybe clubfoot should be removed though? I am going to change 'scared' since players will always take it whenever they know they wil not be facing many undead enemies. Any other ideas for traits?

p.p.s. there was a bug with the run stance. All monsters would get a run icon if the stance was changed (or changed back, can't remember).

I've never seen that, it sounds weird. Do you remember any more of the circumstances, or was it every time?

[jb]

Quote:

p.p.s. there was a bug with the run stance. All monsters would get a run icon if the stance was changed (or changed back, can't remember).


I've never seen that, it sounds weird. Do you remember any more of the circumstances, or was it every time?

I was in this game with Rhuvaen. The thug's dodge icon would also still be showing, though the dodge itself wasn't working. Changing the stance to normal, then back to dodge "reset" it.

After that, all our characters had the run icon, even though the thug had not even learned to run. Our aiming bowman for example switched to run as well. Again, set to normal and reset to aim fixed it. (Note the units did not have increased move, just the icon)

After that all the enemy trolls had the run icon above there head, even though it appeared to not effect them in any other fashion.

[Clonkinator]

I see your point and I'm glad that you consider this a problem. How about having a 'weaponskill' that could be increased 4 times - each time adding to the stats of the weapon in a way consistent with the weapon type? So, boosting your 'mace' weaponskill would add damage, whereas boosting sword weaponskill would add damage and eventually one or two attacks.

How about just allowing the player to select damage/strike increases differently often depending on which weapon he uses, also requiring different amount of character points? For example:

Code: Select all

 DC=Damage Cost, DT=Damage Times, SC=Strike cost, ST=Strike Times
Weapon_____DC_DT___SC_ST
Mace        2 16   12  2
Spear       4  8    9  4
Dagger      6  4    6  7

Strikes should be more expensive than damage anyway imo.

[Aethaeryn]

I think this is a bit simpler an idea in terms of weapons:

Perhaps the character only has control over one type of physical melee combat and can only use items from that type? For example - impact, blade, or pierce. Then they're able to pick up any related item to their type, but only their damage type works. Then perhaps they can learn another damage type for a lot of skill points. Then you can buy or find a 10-2 club or stick with your default 4-3 club, but you can't access blade swords. Another skill you could learn would be the ability to carry two weapons, because by default buying or finding an item and enabling it would replace your original.

That way you can focus more on finding/buying weapons or improving your ability (having two melee weapons or multiple weapon types) rather than just increasing damage. It makes sense that a vagabond would only be able to fight with an impact weapon, anyway, unless he gained enough experience to learn new weapons.

Races could also affect the skill of a potential weapon type. For example, it might be easier for a dwarf to learn impact and having a second melee (as they in default have a hammer). Meanwhile, it could be easier for an elf to get an extra strike, but harder for them to learn non-blade melee. In exchange maybe a ranger secondary could be slightly cheaper. Regular humans would of course be fairly normal in their weaponry as they are versatile.

[suokko]

There is 2 advancement that are buggy ie. When you select them they give effect but don't disappear from the selection list. One is giving 20 % resistance bonus for defending and another is from same category but I don't remember which one.

[suokko]

I think RPG era needs huge optimization.

You could do something like this:

Code: Select all

[event]
name=side turn

{VARIABLE rpg_side_number $side_number}

....
set here all others turn specific variables
...
[/event]

Then just use same code for all sides. Also make filter use variable instead of making event for specific side would make rpg era a lot faster. You could make side list to be $all_sides variable ("1,2,3,4")

Code: Select all

[event]
....
[filter]
side="$all_sides"
[/filter]
....
[/event]

currently only first turn charter selection takes 30,000*number_of_sides lines from save game.

Also there might be possible to move som code out ofthere but duplicating code is worse.