Fencers

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Velensk
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Fencers

Post by Velensk » December 5th, 2007, 1:24 pm

I find that fencers although usefull, tend not to show up in standard mutiplayer for a couple reasons 1 being that they do much less damage than spearmen, cost more, while olny having about the suriveability, less against many units. I ussualy olny see them in the inital recruit for village grabbing. So I was thinking about how to make them more usefull or more specialised without altering their roll or changing their price. The idea I came up with was to make it so that they lvled quickly. Which fits with how they are used. Duelists are undoubtably nice units but not exceptionaly strong for a lvl 2. If I remember right they have a 5-5 melle attack and a 12-1 ranged attack neither of which is incredibly damaging (except maybe if strong and at day). I would like comments on this idea.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper » December 5th, 2007, 2:28 pm

I guess lowering the XP requirement wouldn't hurt (I'm assuming it wouldn't make them much more useful). It's 42 currently, whereas spearmen have the same, bowmen have 39, cavalrymen 40, heavy infantryman 40 and horseman 44.

Velensk
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Post by Velensk » December 5th, 2007, 2:40 pm

I was thinking of it as about as easy as orcish archers maybe a little easier.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

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Haibane
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Post by Haibane » December 5th, 2007, 4:46 pm

It's not unit for mass spam and I don't think it's so rare to meet some. Specialist, not front line unit or backbone of army. We could start to complain about low numbers of shamans on battlefields too, couldn't we ?
With 70% defense and skrimish ability it's hard to kill without magic (or luck) and could be quite annoying. Lvl2 is actually quite better because of ranged attack, it's nightmare (or daymare ? ^-^) for all mages as well as for wounded units.
I don't say a little less XP would be a disaster, but consider this too.
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Post by Glowing Fish » December 5th, 2007, 8:22 pm

Fencer is a heavily specialist unit.

I usually use my fencers to chase down and kill wounded units, or to get behind the enemy after a failed attack so I can pick off and kill his entire army. Or, on a small map like Isar's a fencer can really discourage the enemy from bringing their leader out.
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Post by Jozrael » December 5th, 2007, 8:51 pm

I honestly can't think of a single leader that would be seriously scared of a fencer at full hp.

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Haibane
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Post by Haibane » December 5th, 2007, 9:05 pm

Jozrael wrote:I honestly can't think of a single leader that would be seriously scared of a fencer at full hp.
Well, depends on leader's intellect and situation, but often should be. Who said fencer has to kill him ? Never had your leader blocked by something with 70% defense ? You can even lose your battle.
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JW
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Post by JW » December 6th, 2007, 1:21 am

The Loyalist army is the only one that can recruit 8 units. They have been called the "Swiss army faction" by a few good players - they have an answer for everything. There has been an idea tossed around of removing the Fencer altogether, although I'm not sure how happy this would make the art people, who have spent the time to create such great art for the unit.

They don't really need a 6 move Skirmishing high defense annoyance in addition to everything else they've got. I could care less either way.

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Post by Glowing Fish » December 6th, 2007, 1:28 am

Jozrael wrote:I honestly can't think of a single leader that would be seriously scared of a fencer at full hp.
Well, at full HP, very few. although the Mage units, especially the Saurian mage units, would perhaps qualify.

But again, the leader might not be at full HP. And the fencer might just be moving around to cipher the leader, without even attacking.
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Cackfiend
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Post by Cackfiend » December 6th, 2007, 1:30 am

i had a lucky fencer not die to about 6 attacks one game and he ended up leveling, the whole game was based on that fencer surviving and being able to run while surrounded

imo theyre good enough but a xp decrease is an interesting idea for sure
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Caeb
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Post by Caeb » December 6th, 2007, 3:28 am

JW wrote:The Loyalist army is the only one that can recruit 8 units.
has the Knalgan Alliance disbanded...? :shock:

as for the fencer, being a skirmishing elusivefoot should make them specialized enough to be used, especially if you prefer to play with a bit of tactical style rather than just brute force... also, skirmisher, above average movement, and 4 attacks probably gives the fencer the best chance of getting kills outside of mages and horsemen, so is XP that much of an issue...?

as Haibane mentioned, I've seen the fencer used about as often as shamans in normal games, although how much actual data do we have that they're underused in games between decent players...? additionally, they do somewhat make up for the Loyalists' poor mobility over rough terrain without overpowering elves in forests and dwarves in mountains... I think the fencer is more or less fine as is, and it should be left to the players to try to incorporate it into their strategies if they wish...

(perhaps not enough people have read Myth's addendum to JW's "How to Play" series, or specific factional matchups need to be added to the Loyalist section...) 8)

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JW
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Post by JW » December 6th, 2007, 4:14 am

Caeb wrote:
JW wrote:The Loyalist army is the only one that can recruit 8 units.
has the Knalgan Alliance disbanded...? :shock:
Hmm...I forgot about those pesky buggers. :P

Anyway, Loyalist units differ in usage a lot more than Knalgan units.

Spearman = cheap Pierce fighter;
HI = sturdy impact fighter; D.Fighter = sturdy dual damage fighter
Archer = archer; D.Thunderer = archer, Poacher = archer
Fencer = scooty guy (with skirmish); Thief = scooty guy (w/o skirmish), Footpad = scooty guy (w/o skirmish)
Cavarly = scout + decent attack; Gryphon = scout + good attack (expensive)
Mage = magic user
Horseman = heavy hitter; Ulfserker = heavy hitter
Fish = water unit
nothing; D.Guardsman = really hard to kill

So, as you can see, Knalgans have a couple of similar purpose guys (though all are necessary) whereas each unit in the Loyalist faction serves a pretty different purpose (relatively speaking).

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Post by Velensk » December 6th, 2007, 10:52 am

I see shamans allot more than I see fencers, the healing/slow makes them very worth consitering when it is time to recruit. Whereas with the fencer when it is time to recruit, unless you know for a fact that you want skirmish and are willing to pay for it you will likely buy some other unit.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

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Haibane
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Post by Haibane » December 6th, 2007, 12:32 pm

Velensk wrote:... makes them very worth consitering when it is time to recruit ...
I feel quite similar about fencers, apparently you are using too many shamans or too few fencers ^-^
Of course it's not always same, at small maps I prefere fencers, at bigger ones shamans are usually more useful, also depends who is enemy - and that's not all. And while I would be often able to fight without shamans (not like I do or want), I would really miss fencers. I don't use many fencers but I sure appreciate these few.
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Velensk
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Post by Velensk » December 6th, 2007, 1:06 pm

I don't see huge numbers of shamans, but the thing is I never see more than one fencer in a game and ussualy not even that much of the time, whereas shamans I occasionaly see two (though ussualy olny one at a time), and ussualy see at least one in most matchups. When it comes time to recruit, I tend to look at shamans as a way to cripple my enemies heavy hitters/provide moblie healing, which is usefull against all factions (except maybe knalgans), whereas it's allot harder to see in advance where a fencer will be usefull, and there is no enemy faction in particular that makes you think to get them.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

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