Naga cold weakness

[governor]

Actually, there's a 40% chance that a Whelp will have Quick (he gets 2 of 5 traits). 50% that an orc will (2 of 4).

OT, but I wonder how many people even noticed this error?

1/5 + 1/4 > .40
1/4 + 1/3 > .5

Yeah its close, but maybe someone reading this will learn something and it'll change their life.

[JW]

Actually, there's a 40% chance that a Whelp will have Quick (he gets 2 of 5 traits). 50% that an orc will (2 of 4).

OT, but I wonder how many people even noticed this error?

1/5 + 1/4 > .40
1/4 + 1/3 > .5

Yeah its close, but maybe someone reading this will learn something and it'll change their life.

That's awesome and everything, but that's actually completely irrelevant as I made no error. Perhaps you made a mistake in your statistical analysis because:

1 - (4/5 * 3/4) = .40
and
1 - (3/4 * 2/3) = .50

Perhaps this may change your life and inspire you to take a statistics class.

[nebula955]

trolls have: quick, fearless, strong, resil, and..........?

and adepts, the core ud unit here, also has traits

[JW]

trolls have: quick, fearless, strong, resil, and..........?

and adepts, the core ud unit here, also has traits

Meh. It seems you are right. For some reason when I heard they added Fearless I forgot that Intelligent was still not included. All at 50% then.

[Doc Paterson]

Ghosts are probably the most frequent naga-killing unit if I'm not mistaken, not dark adepts.

You're very mistaken. A ghost does 5-3 melee to a naga at night. You'd have to pound away at a naga on a village for 2-3 turns with 3 ghosts to approach a statistical kill.

(I'm going to assume that you're not referencing a very old version of the game when complaining about a balance issue.)

Even when ghosts had cold they were hardly strong naga counters. 6-3 at night? Big deal. That only seems imposing if someone is trying to kill a ghost on a village with only nagas.

This is what makes the fight really lopsided. The ghost has a projectile cold attack that turns nagas into popsicles.

4-3 ranged against 60 defense...Wow! That is BRUTAL. Back in the day, when it was a whopping 5-3....OUCH. Look out Nagas, you're about to become popsicles!

Ghosts shred through nagas, it's common knowledge.

Love it.


* * * * *

Honestly, you give the impression of never having actually played this matchup, and most certainly not on Hornshark Island. I'm not saying this to be mean; I honestly believe that it's more likely than not the case. Do you really think that the balance of a given match on a given map can be stripped down to "X is overpowered because Y has one advantage here that they don't have on other maps?" That could only hold true if maps were exact clones of one another and someone went in and made one change (They replaced, for example, a few villages with water villages). If that were true, maybe you'd be on the right track, but as it is, in the bounds of this argument, you come across as not having any clue about the vast multitude of other factors and qualities that contribute to the factional balancing of a map.

You're thinking of ECONOMIC ADVANTAGE IN WATER as an oversimplified, singular concept, something that can give some sort of binary output of "balanced" or "unbalanced." You completely overlook/misunderstand other qualities of the map, and assume that because all of these other factors are supposedly equal, EAIW makes the match unfair. To be clear, I do not at all agree that Undead has any kind of edge over Northerners in Hornshark water village oriented battles. I'm granting you that, to try to demonstrate to you the many flaws in that way of thinking about the game.

In regards to this:

you guys start blurting out idiocy along the lines of "Oh well orcs would have 10 other units nearby! Dark adept can't beat 11 units by itself!" Oh really? It can't? Well I'll be damned, that's incredible!

What I was saying was that you convey a scenario where only one adept is facing one naga. You then back this up by saying that your adept is supported. You do not seem to assume that the naga is supported. I guess you somehow read this as "But only the naga will have support!" What I was also getting at is that because the northerner army is more mobile, they will be more likely to have slightly more useful units on hand.

Also in that vein:

That's a very nice list of movement points for Undead and Northerners.

If we were talking about an all grassland map, that comparison might have some merit. The northerner tactical mobility advantage on mainline maps is actually quite large- You cannot just pretend that hills and mountains aren't common occurrences, and that they don't have a major impact on the advances and retreat of the Undead (or that the Northerner army doesn't have traits, and that half of their units aren't one full movement point higher). The flying ghost is very easily trapped and finished, and is not, in my opinion, at all a good unit for the Undead to be recruiting in this match.

There's loads more to say here, but it'd be best if you played the match first, saved the replay, then talked about it afterwards.

[Shiver]

Haven't started acquiring replays just yet, but I stopped in to check on the thread.

Weeksy said essentially the same thing using about 1/3rd as many words, and without sounding like a censored. Maybe he should be giving you advice too.

What I was saying was that you convey a scenario where only one adept is facing one naga. You then back this up by saying that your adept is supported.

This one bit was too good to pass up because it's such an obvious fabrication. I never had the adept supported by another unit in any example and it's ridiculous that you and others keep bringing it up. I believe I said something to the effect of "ideally an undead player would use a ghost or bat to grab a submerged village". Obviously both factions would have other units to complicate the situation, but I only used two at a time.

{Edit: Please follow the forum guidelines and rules. This post has has been censored. --moderator}

[IB]

Troll whelps (a necessity against undead)

Really? I think they are only needed if he goes skeleton heavy otherwise grunts are better.

[Doc Paterson]

Thank you Shiver, for responding to none of the actual counterpoints presented.

I disassembled every aspect of your argument, and all you can do now is waste more time by talking trash. (I'm not surprised that you'd try to take things in a completely irrelevant-to-the-discussion direction at this point, and I'm guessing you'll continue to do so rather than face the facts.)

I notice you don't deny my assumption that you've never actually played the matchup in question on the map in question, and that's a start, at least.

[Shiver]

Thank you Shiver, for responding to none of the actual counterpoints presented.

I disassembled every aspect of your argument, and all you can do now is waste more time by talking trash. (I'm not surprised that you'd try to take things in a completely irrelevant-to-the-discussion direction at this point, and I'm guessing you'll continue to do so rather than face the facts.)

These replays ought to be great.

The response was warranted and I'm sure you're at least partially aware of it. If you want to talk facts, then do so. If you want to spout rude, condescending drivel for pages upon pages like you've been doing then I'm not going to read all of it, let alone respond to you point by point.

[Velensk]

I don't know what you said however complaining about the censorship is going to negify your score rather than defend it, if you are offended and want to leave in a huff I doubt you'll be missed especialy when it is not noticed when people who leave on good terms leave.

About the "thin veil of fake politness"..... It should be real politness, if you disagree you should at least respect that person's right to have and opinion and back it with facts. Rudness olny buys disregaurd in my experiance, in fact the more rude you are, the more likly to be disregaurded you are.

As far as the accualy topic, adepts do kill naga pretty well, ghosts don't. Adepts can't hold water villages against naga very well ghosts can. I don't think that it is a problem realy. I have a hard time seeing how you think (or thought)that undead are quicker than northerners, the olny units that can compare are ghosts and bats neither of which is great at fighting, the rest fall behind to orcs movetype and traits. If orcs go troll heavy then they will have trouble with adepts.

[Doc Paterson]

Thank you Shiver, for responding to none of the actual counterpoints presented.

I disassembled every aspect of your argument, and all you can do now is waste more time by talking trash. (I'm not surprised that you'd try to take things in a completely irrelevant-to-the-discussion direction at this point, and I'm guessing you'll continue to do so rather than face the facts.)

If you want to talk facts, then do so.

Already did so. Feel free to read and respond.

Thank you for yet another post that addresses none of the counterpoints. Can you make it three in a row?

I'm guessing yes.

[Weeksy]

Pah. All of you guys shut up, and let someone post a replay. I'm sure Shiver realizes that many of the older wesnoth players (myself included) are a bit stubborn in their ways. I hope Shiver also realizes that replays are very good evidence of how things are flawed, and that people are only going to become flustered asses as this goes on, unless replays (the closest thing we have to solid evidence) show up.

[Shiver]

The 1.3 versions are broken for me right now even after attempting to apply hotfixes. Are replays from 1.2 still valid? Also, I'd like to test as an observer between tournament-caliber players, but I have no idea which players qualify.

[Aethaeryn]

The 1.3 versions are broken for me right now even after attempting to apply hotfixes. Are replays from 1.2 still valid? Also, I'd like to test using tournament-caliber players, but I have no idea which players qualify.

Ghosts are fundamentally different than in 1.2, and DAs are also changed greatly.

[turin]

Are replays from 1.2 still valid?

No.