Naga cold weakness

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Shiver
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Naga cold weakness

Post by Shiver »

Hi. I'm not really trying to get anything changed here, but can someone explain to me why the Naga has a weakness to cold when both types of Mermen are resistant to it? I don't see the point in making the northerner water unit dramatically weaker against the undead. I'm sure that weakness wasn't thrown in there arbitrarily, so let's hear it.
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thespaceinvader
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Post by thespaceinvader »

From a fluff point of view, Nagas (i assume) are cold-blooded, while mermen (i assume) are not.

From a balance point of view, i don't know...
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Post by CIB »

I think there even was a balance reason, but I can't remember.
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Post by joshudson »

I remember when merfolk were 60% resistant to cold (or something ridiculous like that) and climing onto a lich's castle with six merfolk and poking him to death was a good strategy.
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Xandria
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Post by Xandria »

Well, mostly, the naga has a greater speed, and better movetype. It is also neutral in an otherwise chaotic faction, and has more strikes, thus gaining more from the 'strong' trait. But mostly the movetype. Try moving your merman on a mountain. Plus, it is sexier than Mr. Fishdude.
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Post by Weeksy »

Mermen are weird mammal-fish hybrids, and so get warmed by their warm mammal blood, are used to actually living in the cold water (fish get heat by moving up to lighter waters)

Nagas are snakes with arms, they don't spend all their time living in the water, even though they can swim well. They are cold blooded and are used to it being warm/temperate, and so lose energy when their blood is cooled.
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Caeb
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Post by Caeb »

reminds me of http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... =naga+cold
and a half dozen other mentions in various threads over the years... basically, no strong balanced-based reasons, but not enough strong desires/efforts by devs to overturn the realism-based arguments, either...
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Post by Sapient »

First off, this goes in the MP forum because it is a unit balancing discussion, not the User's Forum. Secondly, it has been discussed a lot already in the past. The search feature is your friend here. The naga is a slightly inferior water unit compared to mermen, but factions are balanced against factions (not units against units).
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Shiver
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Post by Shiver »

Sapient wrote:First off, this goes in the MP forum, not the User's Forum. Secondly, it has been discussed a lot already in the past. The search feature is your friend here. The naga is a slightly inferior water unit compared to mermen, but factions are balanced against factions (not units against units).
After looking through several threads, I don't see how this is a settled issue. Becephalus and JW both think the cold weakness is idiotic. Now that I see there's no hidden balance reason for its existence I tend to agree with them.
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Post by Oreb »

I'd have to agree with Weeksy on how it is, the realism makes sense enough to me. Besides it works, so it's fine. Changing that little resistance could destroy the whole entire game as we know it. :twisted:
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Post by JW »

Shiver wrote:After looking through several threads, I don't see how this is a settled issue. Becephalus and JW both think the cold weakness is idiotic. Now that I see there's no hidden balance reason for its existence I tend to agree with them.
That's not exactly what I said...
JW wrote:Just remove the negative resistance already.
:wink: I haven't played much Wesnoth since the Arcane change though, so really I have no comments on balance or preference on any of that stuff yet.
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Post by Aethaeryn »

JW wrote: :wink: I haven't played much Wesnoth since the Arcane change though, so really I have no comments on balance or preference on any of that stuff yet.
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Shiver:

Feel free to name a specific map and specific factional matchup where the naga's cold weakness makes for an unbalanced game.

If you do that, maybe we'll actually have something to discuss.

Otherwise, there's no reason for anyone to want to change the unit (we're happy with it, and happy with the cold-weakness flavor).
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Weeksy
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Post by Weeksy »

on certain maps v. drakes, the cheap naga can be very controlling of water, especially with the new changes to the drakefly movetype. Being weak to cold will let saurians have a chance to deal with the problem.

I'm just pulling this out of my ass, but I hope it's good enough for you all to be quiet.
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Shiver
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Post by Shiver »

Doc Paterson wrote:Shiver:

Feel free to name a specific map and specific factional matchup where the naga's cold weakness makes for an unbalanced game.
Well, here's one example using Island of Horatii.




Image

This merman is parked in the southern underwater village. A dark adept is sent to attack it alone. It takes four chill wave shots at night for a dark adept to kill a merman, five if the merman is resilient. Given that the merman has such incredible fortitude, it's obvious that this attack is not a very good idea for the Undead player regardless of the time of day. And if the dark adept begins its attack at dawn, the merman has an overwhelming chance of killing it in defense. If the undead player wants to capture this village, they should be using other units to support the adept.




Image

By comparison, this naga to the northeast takes three shots to kill regardless of its traits. Sending a dark adept to attack a naga on this water village essentially forces it to flee because its chance of survival is minimal. The adept even has a reasonable chance of winning an extended conflict if it begins attacking at dawn.


In short, it is almost impossible for Northerners to hold one of the outer island villages on Island of Horatii against an Undead opponent. If you place anything other than a naga on one of these underwater villages, that unit gets 20% defense and is just begging to be killed.
Last edited by Shiver on November 24th, 2007, 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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