Ladder Site Online...

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

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Glouk
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Joined: March 30th, 2009, 8:48 am

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Glouk »

Rigor wrote:
*) the turn timer cannot drop below 3 minutes per turn, which i think would be hard but still sufficient. raising the maximum thinking time sky-high wouldnt made much sense to me, same with some obscure

Hi all,

As far as I am concerned and I already told that to Rigor, I am against a shorter timer because I am quite a slow player and I consider Wesnoth much more like a strategic game than like a "race against the clock game". If I did not, i would spend my time on other games like need for speed or so... In addition, I know I am not the only ladder player who ask for infinite timer to his opponent before each game. If my opponent disagrees, I usually accept the ladder settings that Kolbur mentioned before, but I think I would not like to play with a smaller timer. And so, I strongly vote against a shorter timer. I know this is only my humble opinion, but I know a lot of players who agree with me (I have some names ! :lol2: ) and I hope our opinion will be taken in account by the admins. Thanks by advance.

Glouk
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Paxe
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Location: Madrid

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Paxe »

Rigor wrote: after successfully adding the latest mappack which features 3 different ways to play games ("conservative" for guys who like the old maps, "all" for people who like to play also maps that some top map makers and players consider ladder-safe and "prototype" which gives u an insight into the newest maps or maps that look quite good but lack playtesting or design to push them to the "all" mappack.)

now to the meat: i would like to have your opinions on a changed ladder time setting. i find it is easy enough to make the first turns, but very harsh during a long game with a lot of units, and can often lead to awkward situations (for both players), such as:

*) both set game speed to 16
*) observers wont see anything for minutes...
In my opinion ladder time settings are nice with mostly "conservative"
maps but not with all "Prototype" maps specially those with more
villages and bigger. For me is a question of map-village size more than
it extends so many turns.

Is true that this "prototype" are new for all and "first times"
we spend a lot of time guessing which is most apropiate tactic
to make; but even, when having played them and get to know
them well more or less... time is not enough.

I would suggest 300 - 330 sec depending on the map.

Sincerely

Paxe
Best computer game ever played?...... Wesnoth, The Battle for Wesnoth, of course!
Huumy
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Joined: October 15th, 2009, 9:52 pm

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Huumy »

I think the current time settings are good. I myself use 300 or 330. But I don't mind joining games with the 270 (which in massive long games can be a little short).
Whatever timer changes are made I don't have anything to complain if you keep this section:
These are the lowest values allowed unless you agree on another higher or lower setting with your opponent before the game starts.
"And the girl that you want is directly out in front, And she’s waving her caboose at you, You sneeze achoo, She calls you out and boom!"
The offspring, trolling you since forever.
Ansengrinth
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Joined: March 28th, 2009, 10:37 am

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Ansengrinth »

Hi

Ladder Timer Settings

IMO timer settings should be allowed to be shorter.
On small maps i'm ok with 90s per turn or 2 minutes.
It's ok, too to play with no timer.
Since both players have to agree with the timer settings, rules make no sense.
Standart timer settings are ok for most games. (Maybe a bit long)

Ansengrinth the fast :)
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Rigor
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Rigor »

today ive tested the new timer settings

120
300
300
0

i find no reasons that would speak against a fixed time per turn of 5 min. if anything, the time is always short in important advances/defences, so whats the reason for obscure action boni etc. i dont see any benefits. the game went very smoothly and since u can still press enter before ur turn is over it didnt matter much to have fixed timer for every single turn.

check

http://ladder.subversiva.org/download-r ... %3A32%3A43

and

http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A32%3A43

for the comments.
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Cackfiend
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Cackfiend »

I hate the timer, personally. I wouldn't play wesnoth if I was forced to always have a timer. I have seen it ruin too many good games. Also having a timer makes it so a side cannot go AFK is something unexpected comes up. When two big armies are facing off sometimes you need more than 5 minutes and when you get screwed out of moving 2-3 of your units because the time expired it just isn't fair.


A 1v1 timer in wesnoth is really only useful vs newbies
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D
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Quetzalcoatl
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Joined: March 18th, 2009, 3:26 pm

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Quetzalcoatl »

I agree on timer suckage :augh: .

I personally hate timer for two reasons:
- cant be afk - that basically means that I cant play ladder when I want as I need to reserve few hours for a game and some of the lame players have problems with saving games (I will not wait 30 min until they will respond if they are fine or not with saving a match). You know its only a game and Im not able to put my life away for 2-4 hours to play a game, there are sometimes little things you need to do and they could take a few minutes to accomplish.
- its not enough time - basically I think current ladder timer settings are ok if you are playing vs new players or you are a newcomer yourself :) . I dont remember if I saw any match played by really good top players that was played fast, but I remember many of them increased/disabled time limit :) . Sure you can play fast vs reasonable player (if you dont want to win ;)) but wasnt ladder designed to be tool for serious competition? ;)
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
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Rigor
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Rigor »

hi guys, thats why we r going to change the timer settings for good this time. i have been playing ladder up ladder down with the timer, which basically consisted of nothing less than 5 min per round, what i think is the easiest and most clear solution. this is really enough time, because if the timer runs out u start again with 5 min - not like, somebody attacks with 20+ units, timer runs out, next turn 2 min something to react on the slaughter.

btw, if u want to go afk while playing on the ladder, why dont u just press "S" ? this pauses the game and u can see every one of the opponents moves while u were away. a little hackish solution but still.

im going to write a request/wish to the devs for a

command that pauses the game.

and

one that sets the default timer to something more useful.

if you still dont like to play with a timer u can turn it off, but the current default settings are a little too fast even for myself. and im not really slow.
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Cackfiend
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Cackfiend »

sounds good Rigor..... and yes i wish there was a pause function as well, i'll try out the S too =]
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D
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Rigor
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Rigor »

https://gna.org/bugs/?16733

reported

lets hope its not a too big wish for the developers. i think it is a very easy one this time.
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Neuromancer
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Neuromancer »

Hi guys,
I am kinda new to multiplayer games. So far, my experience with games at default timer is boring. Especially on small maps. I played one ladder at 1:30 on middle-sized map and that was fun. Yes, for me time pressure and related stress = fun. I think when timer is tolerant, you are far less "consumed" with game and game itself is much more dependant on luck and initial recruits: everyone (well, not everyone, but every at-least-little-skilled player) can position his/her troops near 100% perfection when given enough time. Stress timer makes you prone to mistakes and thats how games are decided.
Sorry for my english.
Huumy
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Joined: October 15th, 2009, 9:52 pm

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Huumy »

Neuromancer wrote:everyone (well, not everyone, but every at-least-little-skilled player) can position his/her troops near 100% perfection when given enough time. Stress timer makes you prone to mistakes and thats how games are decided.
With 4:30 I have troubles making good choices but also my opponent has. You may think it's easy to make good choices but it's really hard in situations where you have choice to either retreat and attack other thing is when you start the attack but you have bad luck in such way you need to think again what to do.
Perfect choices in this game are even harder than most of the games. You may think that perfect choices are obvious moves (sometimes they are) but to know what is perfect choice you would have to know the winning % of all the possible choices from this turn to the end of the game in which you would have to think ahead every possible outcome of random factors and every possible recruit and move your opponent might do. So to me I think I very rarely do anything even near perfect choice even for one turn.
Neuromancer wrote:I think when timer is tolerant, you are far less "consumed" with game and game itself is much more dependant on luck and initial recruits
I think with enough time to think the game is less luck dependant because with decent timer you have enough time to defend (defending players moves usually take way more time than attacking) this makes the first attack more likely not totally kill opponent, which makes longer games and in longer games better players make less mistakes and eventually win even with slightly bad luck. And I don't think even with 4:30 timer anyone can make near perfect moves atleast not many in row. I think you don't realize how non-luck dependant the game can be if played really good.
"And the girl that you want is directly out in front, And she’s waving her caboose at you, You sneeze achoo, She calls you out and boom!"
The offspring, trolling you since forever.
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Quetzalcoatl
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Joined: March 18th, 2009, 3:26 pm

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Quetzalcoatl »

Hi,
many ppl do not visit forums often so I thought it would be cool to post this link on ladder website if possible to get some feedback from ladder community.
http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=32037

Cheers
Q
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
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Doc Paterson
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Doc Paterson »

I haven't had these committed yet, but I figured ladder folk would like to use them:

http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 55#p464155
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses.
-Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
Huumy
Posts: 293
Joined: October 15th, 2009, 9:52 pm

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Huumy »

Henrythe12th you can report our game you as winner. :) I won't have much time to play wesnoth so...
"And the girl that you want is directly out in front, And she’s waving her caboose at you, You sneeze achoo, She calls you out and boom!"
The offspring, trolling you since forever.
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