Ladder Site Online...

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

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eyerouge
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Ladder Site Online...

Post by eyerouge » September 20th, 2007, 2:16 am

[Important Notice] The ladder is not in any way associated with this forum, it's moderators and/or the developers of Wesnoth. It's not an offical part of Wesnoth. You're allowed to reply to this post but not to start new ladder related threads.

Quick version

1 vs 1 ladder, all are welcome.
http://ladder.subversiva.org

Image

Features
  • Keep track of your victories & losses ratio and played games.
  • Elo rating: Check out how well you play compared to the other ladderers.
  • In-game friends list support: Find other ladder players easy.
  • On-site looking for game list
  • Easy to use challenge system
  • History, see who lost against who, when and how much Wose wood spanked their ass.
  • RSS Support
  • Active & Passive modes.
  • Let's not forget the c-teasing avatars.. that alone is worth it.
  • Open Source Project - all can contribute with php.

Normal one

I've seen countless of threads a) discussing if a ladder/ranking system should be built into the game or not and b) asking for ladders online.

This post has nothing to do with a). It's just meant to be of help to those who wish to play using an online ladder. If you're not such a person, then surely replying in here and saying so won't do us any good - after all you're not the target group.

If you however like the idea of keeping track of your Wesnoth games and to know you relative ranking then you're more than welcome to use the ladder when you feel like it.

I'm also fully aware that there have been ladders around and that there are several projects that are either on going or half-dead that also address this topic. That still doesn't change the fact that there doesn't seem to be an easy way for new people to find out about them (even if you use the search in here etc) or that some of them has a questionable status or are still in early development. In either case I felt I could contribute with the hosting and maintenances of one, so here it is.

I won't say that this one is better nor worse of. It's basic and it will do what it's supposed to, spam & crap free. If the need arises and people show interest, it will be developed and new functions would be implemented. If not, it will just be yet another faded ladder. The choice is yours. Play the game as you like, but most importantly, enjoy it. Ladder or no ladder... Wesnoth frakking rocks.


Sourceforge project: PHP:ers wanted
We're doing continuous work on the ladder code, using PHP & MySQL. If you know PHP and want to help us out or become part of the team you're more than welcome - we need every single one of you and have a long list of tasks that need to be done if you haven't got ideas of your own. Head over to the project, but please don't code anything without contacting us first! That way we avoid double-work.


[Important Notice Again] The ladder is not in any way associated with this forum, it's moderators and/or the developers of Wesnoth. It's not an offical part of Wesnoth. You're allowed to reply to this post but not to start new ladder related threads.
Last edited by eyerouge on May 16th, 2008, 5:45 pm, edited 11 times in total.

Weeksy
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Post by Weeksy » September 20th, 2007, 4:01 am

The rules are fairly crappy IMO. Why not go with standard tourney rules of:
70%
fog
noshroud
random start time
notimer
Default Era


I know you'd get a lot more people than with the current setup, or at least a lot more experienced players, as those are the settings IIRC wesnoth 1v1 maps are balanced for.
If enough people bang their heads against a brick wall, The brick wall will fall down

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cool evil
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Post by cool evil » September 20th, 2007, 4:07 am

Rather hard to get people to join and behave properly, you can just falsely report and get your stats up high. The only way this could work is as if you had a wesnoth server with rankings for each registered player.

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eyerouge
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Post by eyerouge » September 20th, 2007, 5:02 am

Weeksy wrote:The rules are fairly crappy IMO. Why not go with standard tourney rules of:
70%
fog
noshroud
random start time
notimer
Default Era
As it says on the site the rules need some work, which makes your suggestion the more interesting: Is it a fact that what you suggest is a standard?

I've been playing Wesnoth very casually for long but aren't familiar with what official / standardized rules there are. Any pointers to such would be nice - the rules we're from my imagination and I make no claims on knowing the community better than those who've been around, so please help me out here. =)

[On a side note, and without trying to stray off topic too much: Wouldn't a game become very long or boring if your opponent had eternal time every move? My thought with the standard times was to get a maximum of x seconds per turn, to get a flow. If time wasn't enabled, who would then decide if the opponent isn't surfing the web or has gone afk? How long would a player have to wait for his opponent before he would be announced a winner? In essence, any answer that involves time, suggest that one might as well use the timers.]
cool evil wrote:Rather hard to get people to join and behave properly, you can just falsely report and get your stats up high. The only way this could work is as if you had a wesnoth server with rankings for each registered player.
I believe that statistically speaking, a really small amount of people would resort to cheating in various ways, and, as I point out in the FAQ - they wouldn't get much fun out of it since they know they're cheating and know that the outcome is more or less set from the start.

In any case, you can't just keep reporting a bunch of fake games because all the games are logged. If you report a win over me, my ranking will change. I will ofc notice since I a) haven't played and b) even if i did happen to play, I haven't played with you who made the false report. The nicknames of the winner and loser are seen for every game.

What you could do is to register several accounts and "play with yourself" to get better scores on some of the accounts. I don't however see the point with doing that (and it also shows in the admin interface ): What would that prove to anyone? It's so irrational it's not even worth discussing it because of the reason stated earlier - how many, in total %, would do such a thing? Not enough to wreck the system. The beauty is that even if 50% did it, it wouldn't really affect the legitimate players usage of the latter - his/hers numbers would still serve their purpose. This is
something that seems to be often overlooked.

Also, say that a player has cheated several times to get a good rating. So what? The very next real game he'll play he'll just get owned, thus his ranking will drop like stone. The only problem is that the guy who wins over him unknowingly will get points he didn't really deserve, but, that will be taken care of the next time(s) that person loses.

Lastly, where would all these fake games have taken place? The cheater would have to show up on the official server(s) with his clone army and "play" against himself. If a person has plenty of wins but that person and/or his opponents are never on any server, it's pretty hard to understand where these games take place.

Is it possible to simulate games by playing yourself on the server? Sure. Is it a real problem of a magnitude worthy this discussion? I really don't think so.. I can't even figure out how it could be one unless you take a ladder dead serious or keep in mind we're talking about an open source game.

As it's stated in the FAQ there are ways to cheat, and will be for very long. With that in the open, we can decide on how the supposed and actual cheaters should influence our lives and style of play. I personally won't stop using a ladder because 1 - 5% cheat for x days and then probably quit the game anyway.

The concept already works. Unless a majority cheats. A majority doesn't and those who do quit soon enough.

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Post by Noyga » September 20th, 2007, 8:03 pm

IMHO it's a nice iniative for those who like that kind of competition.
Usually strong players tend to to like standard settings ("Use map settings").
About the time limit well it depend what kind of game you want. You may want blitz games where you have to play fast. Or normal games where you take all the time you need.
Btw while most players usually play in a resonable time, some might try to break the opponent patience by taking a fairly long time to play. So a time limit, with values large enough not to be a real limitation in normal situation, might be useful to prevent that kind of abuses. If for a particular reason you have to leave in the middle of the game, and come back later you can save the game and reload when you're back, so the turn limit is not a problem. Nevertheless with player you know they play fair, you don't need that kind of measure :)

There been such a ladder in the past. Some players enjoyed it. But after some few player continued to use it and then everybody forgot it... Maybe it was more popular at the begining because it was new. Some very good players played it and like expected they were in the top ranks...
"Ooh, man, my mage had a 30% chance to miss, but he still managed to hit! Awesome!" ;) -- xtifr

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eyerouge
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Post by eyerouge » September 20th, 2007, 10:59 pm

Noyga wrote:IMHO it's a nice iniative for those who like that kind of competition.
Thank you, and yes, that's what I was hoping to achieve - to offer an option for those interested in it.
Noyga wrote:Usually strong players tend to to like standard settings ("Use map settings"). About the time limit...
Great to get the default-settings-thing verified. :)

I've changed the rules to accommodate default mode (default era & map settings). Time limits have also changed - the only reason for the time being in the rules is to have smooth game play, not to measure blitz-skills. Rules now have a pre-defined and extended minimal amount of time if/unless the players don't agree on another time setup that they both favour instead.
Noyga wrote:There been such a ladder in the past. Some players enjoyed it. But after some few player continued to use it and then everybody forgot it... Maybe it was more popular at the begining because it was new. Some very good players played it and like expected they were in the top ranks...
I believe the knowledge of the ladder(s mine or anyone elses) should be made available easily for new players: Most new players are not forum dwellers and only visit the forum once in a while, if at all on a regular basis. Also, most don't use the search and take the time required to read plenty of threads to get the information they might need.

What I suggest is that all Wesnoth ladders and the likes 1) are added in a separate section in the Wiki (would that be okey? Who do I have to ask?) and b) that perhaps there could exist one sticky thread somewhere in the forum listing the url:s to all the ladders and/or regular tournaments, if any.

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Post by Soliton » September 21st, 2007, 1:29 pm

eyerouge wrote:What I suggest is that all Wesnoth ladders and the likes 1) are added in a separate section in the Wiki (would that be okey? Who do I have to ask?)
Sounds fine, you can make an account and do that yourself. Not sure where to put links to it.. maybe StartingPoints and/or Play.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott

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eyerouge
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Post by eyerouge » September 21st, 2007, 4:41 pm

Soliton wrote:Sounds fine, you can make an account and do that yourself. Not sure where to put links to it.. maybe StartingPoints and/or Play.
I edited http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Play and added a link to http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Competitive_Gaming

Please edit if I frakked up somehow =)

FireMaster
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Post by FireMaster » October 4th, 2007, 7:18 am

Can you only report if you win?

If no please delete Firemaster so that i can re-create my account.
Just because I'm a master of fire doesn't mean I'll light your "uber candle"

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eyerouge
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Post by eyerouge » October 4th, 2007, 1:41 pm

FireMaster wrote:Can you only report if you win?

If no please delete Firemaster so that i can re-create my account.
Yes, you can only report if you're the winner, by selecting your nickname as the winners, selecting your opponents nickname as the loser, and also entering your (the winners) password.

If you enter the Ladder section you'll see that you have 1 win. If you press your nickname in the ladder you will see that it was in your last game against JJ.

JJ
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Post by JJ » October 6th, 2007, 6:19 pm

eyerouge wrote:If you enter the Ladder section you'll see that you have 1 win. If you press your nickname in the ladder you will see that it was in your last game against JJ.
There ought to be a method for challenging a reported win on the website. I haven't even played a ladder game since I joined you all a week or so ago... not that my self esteem is reliant on my Wesnoth record.

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eyerouge
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Post by eyerouge » October 6th, 2007, 8:13 pm

There ought to be a method for challenging a reported win on the website. I haven't even played a ladder game since I joined you all a week or so ago...
Thank you for the report about the false report.


E-mail to me can be found in the footer and also in the FAQ.

In the FAQ it says "If you manage to make a false report by mistake please send us a mail and we'll correct it.". I'll rephrase that so it also applies to false reports which the reader hasn't made.

In the Agreement it also says "If you suspect a player breaks the agreement you must contact us. Don't fear - we treat all correspondence with discretion.".

If you feel it should be made more explicit and you have suggestions on how / where to make it so it's appreciated - I'm doing my best to try to build a nice ladder for W but currently I'm doing it super-solo and I'm only human. All help is welcome and I can insure you that I have all intentions in the world on following through on my self-proclaimed assignment ;)

I took the liberty to correct your Elo to 1500 and delete the fake game along with a block against the player who reported the win.

To avoid a share of future fake registrants I'll also implement a e-mail verification system as soon as I get the chance. If anyone who knows PHP want to help with this please contact me already - together we can make this work.

Edit: Seeing that it's Firemaster who did the fake report and he posted in this thread expressing confusion about who can report or not, I unblocked him. As I now have a means of contacting him I'll do so instead.

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incidentally

Post by JJ » October 12th, 2007, 3:57 am

I think it's really cool what you're trying to organize. :)

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Post by jdsampayo » October 12th, 2007, 5:16 am

Beware, the emails are showed to anyone.

It will not be more natural to see in color the option in what are you and in gray the others in the menu?
In quechquixcauh maniz cemanahuatl, ayc pollihuiz yn itenyo, yn itauhca in Mexico-Tenochtitlan
As long as the world exists, no one will forget the glory and honor of Mexico-Tenochtitlan - Culhuacan memorial

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eyerouge
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Post by eyerouge » October 12th, 2007, 9:10 am

I think it's really cool what you're trying to organize
Thank you.
Beware, the emails are showed to anyone.

It will not be more natural to see in color the option in what are you and in gray the others in the menu?
The addresses are only shown when you enter a specific players profile or click on the e-mail in the players section. As the site is still new I can almost guarantee that bots haven't harvested the mails. In any case this issue has been pointed out by another player and I'll resolve it the next update: Then the emails will have the form a(x)b(y)c, which would prevent the future problem with spambots. The mails will also continue to be shown to everyone, since there would be no way to get in touch with another player from the ladder if they weren't. The whole point is to enable communication between players. In the future and as soon as I find a php coder, we might support internal messages.

Concerning the menu: You are correct. As a matter of fact I have plans to ditch the winner-selection in the menu. Instead, we'll implement a login system. Once we do that you will be able to login with you rusername/pass and what you ask for will be easy to do in the ladder, and it will also make the selection of the winner redundant.

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