Ladder Site Online...

[Yogibear]

A time limit is just something I find obligatory in any competitive environment. In a competitive environment, players try to use all the resources they have. If they have unlimited time, some will definitely use it. The fast players will start to crawl out of their skin and get angry in chat, the slow players will react aggressively rightfully saying "I can think for as long as I want". As such it is best to force both fast players and slow players into a unified time limit; the fast players at least know that they will be waiting for a set amount of time, and the slow players, while they cannot think for as much as they might like, never have to deal with accusations of "playing too slow".

Hmm, i disagree on that one. In my opinion, the host sets the time limit that he is comfortable with. His opponent basically agrees on that by joining the game - although it should be a matter of fair play to explicitly ask him if the default timer conditions are not met.

Given that, no player has a reason to complain: They both play with conditions they agreed upon.

If you are a fast player and you don't want to have long turns (or you want to apply your skill of being able to make good decisions under time pressure), then simply don't join a game with no timer.

I am one of the rather slow players. I find the time limit of 4:30 a little tight in some situations, nevertheless i play games with those settings once in a while and that's ok. But you will never see me join a serious game with 2:00 turn limit.
I played a ladder game with Goldilocks lately (without time limit) and there was a tricky situation where he didn't know what to do. I didn't count, but i think he almost spent 10 minutes thinking about that turn. And it was ok for me. It was what we agreed upon when starting the game.

Now, thinking about it a little more, there are of course limits. I wouldn't want to wait for half an hour to have my opponent complete his turn. So what i said above makes the assumption that everyone is trying to keep turns as short as reasonable.

[Rigor]

im a fast player and i dont use timers for my ladder games. why ? when u r older you have to do other things that can happen during ur ladder game. a 16 yr old can say "i dont have any (home)work so i can play as much as i want" much easier. in our different situation, things happen more fluently. housework that has to be done immediately, work that calls u on the phone, your dog that wants to go out, your gf that might want to be greeted when she comes home , mom/friends/peers calling you once in a while because they want to speak with u/ meet u / need something and thats when ur playing ur ladder game ETC ETC !

and still, if thats not enough reason, its hard to explain that u cannot be interrupted for either 1 or 3 hours to other ppl who dont understand these kind of things.

[Eskon]

A time limit is just something I find obligatory in any competitive environment. In a competitive environment, players try to use all the resources they have. If they have unlimited time, some will definitely use it. The fast players will start to crawl out of their skin and get angry in chat, the slow players will react aggressively rightfully saying "I can think for as long as I want". As such it is best to force both fast players and slow players into a unified time limit; the fast players at least know that they will be waiting for a set amount of time, and the slow players, while they cannot think for as much as they might like, never have to deal with accusations of "playing too slow".

Hmm, i disagree on that one. In my opinion, the host sets the time limit that he is comfortable with. His opponent basically agrees on that by joining the game - although it should be a matter of fair play to explicitly ask him if the default timer conditions are not met.

Given that, no player has a reason to complain: They both play with conditions they agreed upon.

If you are a fast player and you don't want to have long turns (or you want to apply your skill of being able to make good decisions under time pressure), then simply don't join a game with no timer.

I am one of the rather slow players. I find the time limit of 4:30 a little tight in some situations, nevertheless i play games with those settings once in a while and that's ok. But you will never see me join a serious game with 2:00 turn limit.
I played a ladder game with Goldilocks lately (without time limit) and there was a tricky situation where he didn't know what to do. I didn't count, but i think he almost spent 10 minutes thinking about that turn. And it was ok for me. It was what we agreed upon when starting the game.

Now, thinking about it a little more, there are of course limits. I wouldn't want to wait for half an hour to have my opponent complete his turn. So what i said above makes the assumption that everyone is trying to keep turns as short as reasonable.

The last paragraph is what I'm talking about. You're only playing with no time limit under the assumption that your opponent won't deliberately play too slowly. That's not much different from actually playing with a time limit, only you can't enforce it if the other player is being a bork about it. Non-borks are never the problem thankfully.

Most ladder games are not played by players with a truly competitive mindset; you'll find that more in a tournament. Would you play tournament matches without time limits? (As for me, I just like playing under competitive circumstances; it helps me think)



As for the "real life butts in" problem, yes, during times in which you might be interrupted by unexpected occasions it is not a good idea to play with a time limit. If the opponent is okay with not playing with one, you're on the safe side. I'm not quite sure why you decided to bolden the girlfriend part, was she looking over your shoulder or something?

[Cackfiend]

Tournaments have never had time limits actually. And people do indeed play ladder games with a very competitive mindset... or else why would they bother even to play a ladder match?


I hate time limits in ladder matches because THEY RUIN GOOD MATCHES and never play with it unless I accidentally join a ladder match and didn't notice the time limit. If you're unlucky enough to have your opponent take 10 mins + per turn well then I suggest never playing with them again and noting it in the details of the match. I personally have never had that problem, although I tend to only play 1700+ ranked players and suspect its only a real problem with low ranked players.

The only turns that could take over the 4.5 minute time limit are the IMPORTANT TURNS and I have seen many of them screw up a game because of the time limit.


Also, i'm a huge fan of random ToD for ladder matches and wish it was mandatory. It would add a whole other level of strategy to the game. The only faction that really uses the fixed ToD is orcs and TBH its a bit OP for them on some maps (freelands for example).

[Yogibear]

I'm not quite sure why you decided to bolden the girlfriend part, was she looking over your shoulder or something?

Hehe, it's because it has by far the most serious consequences .

[ano]

THEY RUIN GOOD MATCHES

Oh, Cackfiend, that was exactly what I was talking about. I can't be absolutely sure because I lack experience but I firmly feel it. If I (say) skip a turn because of real life circumstances, I will nearly lose all interest in the game because all my plans, thoughts and many other things will be wasted. I will feel greatly disappointed with the match and that is not good for sure.

The only turns that could take over the 4.5 minute time limit are the IMPORTANT TURNS and I have seen many of them screw up a game because of the time limit.

Absolutely.

Also, i'm a huge fan of random ToD for ladder matches and wish it was mandatory. It would add a whole other level of strategy to the game. The only faction that really uses the fixed ToD is orcs and TBH its a bit OP for them on some maps (freelands for example).

Again, the same

[Eskon]

Tournaments have never had time limits actually.

All I know is that a chess tournament without time limits would be an absolute disaster.

THEY RUIN GOOD MATCHES

This is the main reason why the ladder is not nearly an accurate depiction of a competitive environment: Players can pick and choose. "I won't play with this person because he/she won't play without a time limit/on any map but Freelands/against Random/against people with above 1600 ELO/etc." People choose their own rules, and then just refuse to play against anyone who doesn't want to follow them.

My understanding of a "good" match is not a match that has every side playing "perfect" Wesnoth by agonizing over every move for basically unlimited time. A "good" match is one that is exciting. Having to perform under pressure, having to efficiently manage ones own time, and sometimes making a mistake (on either side) is exciting to me. I WANT to be put under pressure, because I know I'm the kind of person who WILL agonize over a single move for twenty minutes. I don't want to because matches take a bit too long than I can easily afford them to even with the regular 4:30 time limit.

[Rigor]

I'm not quite sure why you decided to bolden the girlfriend part, was she looking over your shoulder or something?

Hehe, it's because it has by far the most serious consequences .

judging by your wicked laughter i suppose u know things that remain hidden for others

find out yourself eskon

[Cackfiend]

This is the main reason why the ladder is not nearly an accurate depiction of a competitive environment: Players can pick and choose. "I won't play with this person because he/she won't play without a time limit/on any map but Freelands/against Random/against people with above 1600 ELO/etc." People choose their own rules, and then just refuse to play against anyone who doesn't want to follow them.

My understanding of a "good" match is not a match that has every side playing "perfect" Wesnoth by agonizing over every move for basically unlimited time. A "good" match is one that is exciting. Having to perform under pressure, having to efficiently manage ones own time, and sometimes making a mistake (on either side) is exciting to me. I WANT to be put under pressure, because I know I'm the kind of person who WILL agonize over a single move for twenty minutes. I don't want to because matches take a bit too long than I can easily afford them to even with the regular 4:30 time limit.

You have a very interesting perspective thats for sure


But I must disagree with you and say that ladder is indeed an accurate depiction of a competitive environment

I think you may be thinking too much into it... ladder is mostly a way for players to play each other and actually care about trying and not leaving after they lose their first unit etc that happens in casual matches

[Sapient]

I agree with Cackfiend but for a totally different reason. The timer settings of +200 per turn with a 270 reservoir limit are just plain wrong.

If the reservoir limit is very close to the per turn bonus then it is a good indication you are abusing the reservoir limit to cover up for too-generous bonuses. This makes it essentially impossible to reward good (non-slow) users by allowing them save up for their long-yet-pivotal turns (such as the game-breaking turns described by Cackfiend).

Instead of having such high per-turn values and capping the reservoir relatively low, you should be starting with a high Initial amount, lower the per turn bonus (your action bonus possibly as well), and then raise the reservoir limit.

The reservoir limit should be set to the longest duration that you are really willing to endure a turn of your opponent. Based on Cackfiend's statements, this would be something like 10 minutes. But you won't be able to set the reservoir that high if you keep your turn and action bonus values high... because the reservoir will fill too quickly!

So what's the solution? Simply this: Turns that are played faster than the desired comfortable pace should build up the reservoir; turns that are slower than the desired comfortable pace should deplete it. I'll call this the golden rule of time limit settings. (If you desire a "hectic" or "brisk" pace then substitute that word in for "comfortable.")

Is your desired comfortable pace in the middle of the game around 270 seconds a turn (70 seconds for 3.5 attack/recruit/capture actions plus 200 seconds for other/general purpose actions)? If so, is that also the same amount of time as the limit you are willing to possibly endure on a pivotal turn (a.k.a. reservoir limit)? I think not. But that is the way you are recommending it be set.

-----------------

On an unrelated note since I'm apparently on a full scale rant now, the purpose of action bonus isn't to reward aggression but rather to allow your time limits to flex somewhat with your army size.

Unfortunately, it doesn't allow you to compensate entirely for changes in army size --because it only models time spent on recruiting those additional units, attacking with them, or capturing villages with them -- however it does help somewhat.

If you can envision your average ladder player who plays at the desired comfortable pace and determine the average amount of time spent directly related to a single "action" (capture, attack, or recruit) then you will know the correct action bonus value. I advise determining this with confidence and leaving it alone before tweaking the turn bonus. Then the process of achieving the "golden rule" will be less confusing because you will only need to tweak one variable.

[Doc Paterson]

Anyone know what Dauntless is talking about in this match description? (Drives me crazy sometimes that match comments can't be responded to on the site.)

"It wasnt a sneaky ghost, but the Devs strive for aestheticks that made a mountain look as impabbable one and zoced ghost wasnt zoced after alll, stealing about 60 gold from the village he took thru the game :/

EDIT: Never mind- found the replay. I've never heard of anyone making that mistake there- The passable/impassable division looks very clear to me. It is also mirrored in the other corner of the map.

[jacob]

That is fascinating, Sapient. Basically, what you seem to be saying is that the problems mentioned are not so much problems with the concept of the timer itself, but rather problems with the Ladder settings. I admit that I have never fully understood what each of the four timer variables were for, but have blindly followed the instructions on the Ladder FAQ.

What would your recommendations be for timer settings based on the ten minute maximum?

--

On the action bonus: I had no idea that it also gave a bonus for village captures. I thought it was mainly to compensate for taking in the new information presented by the attack/recruit panels. For that reason, I believed that you were given the bonus regardless of whether or not you decided to make the recruit or perform the attack; i.e. you hit cancel. Is that not correct? (now that I think about it, I'm sure that would easily be abused by people just bringing up the panel and hitting cancel over and over. On the other hand, I often spend twenty seconds deciding if I would like to make the attack based on the damage statistics, but perhaps that is due to me being a rather mediocre player.)

--

Oh, and Doc, I remember once being caught off-guard by the passable mountain on freelands, and that was on an older version of Wesnoth that had not yet developed the newer seamless (and quite awesome) tile aesthetic. (I am not arguing, however, that we change anything. I would rather keep the confusion.)

[chains]

On the subject of a tourney: the easiest way to do a ladder tourney is to hold the entire tournament in the space of 8 hours. The tournament starts at 8 am PST on Saturday (which is prime time European playing if I remember correctly). Registration is open during the entire time of the tournament, and a week prior the announcements go up on wesnoth.org and the ladder site. With a hard deadline of 4 pm PST for the final match to start. To advance each match you must play against a player or team with the same record as yourself. So if your 1-0 you must play against someone else who is 1-0.

One player or team might try and get a bunch of wins as quickly as they can, but if no other team is 4-0 they won't have any one to play, and when they finally do get to play against someone else who is 4-0 it should be a tough match. Losing wouldn't put you out of the game, you'd just be forced to play someone else who was 4-1 to continue.

If you don't get your last match started by tourney close; you missed the tourney. Obviously to win you'll need to have 3-4 matches done by 2pm, but even if your late and only win 2 matches, you can have a decent showing in the standings.

At the end of the tournament if there is a tie, a play off match can be arranged by the tied players... or the tournament can just end in a tie.

The reason this works is because the tournament can be held every week at the same time with little or no oversight. Pairing can be done by the website after registration has started and the tournament timers can be enforced with PHP. You can start reporting wins at 8:10 am and your last report has to come in before 6pm. The website can accept the match reports, match games based on a list of waiting players, and display the current standings through out the day. The tournament can happen every week; so if you get ripped off by the RNG, you can try again next Saturday.

This system becomes incredibly easy to participate in if the multi player lobby is upgraded to allow for games to be automatically matched via a "play game". The interface can have a "Play Tournament Game" button that adds you to the pool of waiting players.

[silent]

I'm not sure if this is the right spot, but since it concerns the ladder site, I'll post it here.

The last 2 games that I won, I have been able to report without problem. However, for each game I tried to upload a replay, but when I browsed my saves for each replay, and selected the one I wished to upload, when I reported the win, the replay had not been uploaded.

Have I missed anything, or is this just something stupid on my behalf? I'm using 1.6.5 by the way.

[Rigor]

u just did something wrong

speaking of something else: when does our nice little tourney start ?