Ladder Site Online...

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
tekelili
Posts: 1038
Joined: August 19th, 2009, 9:28 pm

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by tekelili »

nebula955 wrote: Just quit the ladder, no one will miss you.
.
I think this is a great idea nebula955. I also think you could provide a list of players no one will miss in ladder, or at least a simple rules to find out if a player match them and no one would miss him. That way all the players that are not important and are just currently being tolerated despite their meaningless, would have pretty clear how irrelevant is their belonging to ladder. that way they could have easier decide leave ladder levaing you and your friends alone to play toghether without dumbass anoying your heaven.
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
World Conquest II
nebula955
Posts: 82
Joined: March 1st, 2007, 2:33 am

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by nebula955 »

tekelili wrote:
nebula955 wrote: Just quit the ladder, no one will miss you.
.
I think this is a great idea nebula955. I also think you could provide a list of players no one will miss in ladder, or at least a simple rules to find out if a player match them and no one would miss him. That way all the players that are not important and are just currently being tolerated despite their meaningless, would have pretty clear how irrelevant is their belonging to ladder. that way they could have easier decide leave ladder levaing you and your friends alone to play toghether without dumbass anoying your heaven.
Just to clarify, it was not my idea. He threatened it, and I am not opposed to it.
Gallifax
Posts: 137
Joined: October 23rd, 2006, 5:36 pm
Location: Who cares?

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Gallifax »

@Oook: I lost a lot of games deliberatley, I played and still play some games not very serious. I do not need a 2nd nick for that.

Why should I? Its not entirely fair I think if I had one.

Why should a 2nd nick be ok if a player is distracted? I thought the profile is supposed to show the whole spectrum of a playerprofile and not just one side and another which I convienently hide from others.

This is not simply about hurting elos system or not, its a question of character or personality. Thats why I would delete all 2nd accounts and leave them with their higher ranked accounts. I think it would be more fair.
Huumy
Posts: 293
Joined: October 15th, 2009, 9:52 pm

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Huumy »

To me this issue seems like this:

The problem with 2 or more accounts is that admins need time and care to make sure no1 is cheating. Having multiple accounts is common in another games like starcraft 2, but there the game is build so it's very very hard to play vs your second account.

The benefit to have 2 or more accounts is that gives more freedom for players.

To be honest I think the best solution would be admins either
1) enforce the rules of only 1 account (ban the other accounts, not the players)
2) drop the rule

If you can make 99% sure that no1 is cheating, I don't see absolute no problem having multiple accounts.
"And the girl that you want is directly out in front, And she’s waving her caboose at you, You sneeze achoo, She calls you out and boom!"
The offspring, trolling you since forever.
User avatar
Mint
Posts: 159
Joined: January 22nd, 2011, 9:29 am
Location: Location Location Location

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Mint »

In my eyes, this whole affair is hilarious and slightly pitiful. Its slightly odd that both sides don't seem to be listening to each other, and it is so personalised. How do all you passionate people feel this will help? This really intrigues me.
All in all, this whole affair is just... :lol2:

Mint is not my active ladder account. I have switched to Bonobo so Mint becomes obsolete. I do not hide this fact
Last edited by Mint on July 8th, 2011, 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gallifax
Posts: 137
Joined: October 23rd, 2006, 5:36 pm
Location: Who cares?

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Gallifax »

I do have my opinion about this , but I am only interested in a sultion, a decision how this would be dealt with in future.

I think ladder seems a bit redicolous with many doubleaccounts, it doesnt reflect proper skill anymore, but if thats what people want, fine. Just settle this either way.
User avatar
Oook
Posts: 70
Joined: March 23rd, 2009, 5:51 pm

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Oook »

WhiteMage wrote: Btw, admins claim that Elo is being used, but not willing to share their modified version of the Elo system that is actually being used. This is very suspicious. I do not want to bash the admins as I have nothing against them, but wouldn’t the knowledge how their “modified version of the Elo” actually works give a tremendous advantage to those players who happen to know it?
When you say they are not willing to share their modified version, do you mean you've asked them, and they have told you you can't have any details? If they simply haven't sent you details you've asked for yet, it's worth bearing in mind that firstly, Rigor seems to have been away while this discussion has taken place, so probably hasn't even read your request yet. Secondly, iirc the current ladder admins are not able to modify or update the ladder code - that would need to be done by eyerouge or similar (people who set up the ladder server in the first place). So it's possible that the current admin can't give you the details you asked for, rather than won't.

When you say 'modified version' of elo, please note that elo is simply the algorithm used. It requires constants put in to set it up, which means you end up with slightly different implementations. There's not really one 'true' elo implementation, just differently tweaked ones.

Since the ladder was coded as an open source project, you can find the code for it here, as linked to from the first page of this topic, and from the ladder site itself. Currently, the K value for players above 2100 is 16, bellow that it goes up to 24, and and some point further down goes to 32 I think. The K values and the transition points can all be easily observed from the rating changes shown on the ladder page. I think that, plus the source code, should give you a pretty good idea of how it works?

I don't see how knowing that gives anyone an advantage. The elo system is fairly simple, and the settings of the constants don't really change it that much, just affect how sluggish / oversensitive it is to change in actual strength. Elo systems (including chess systems such as the FIDE ratings) make no secret of how they work - if chess grandmasters can't use that knowledge to game the system, we're probably safe here ;) The only way to get 'safe' or 'easy' points in any settled elo system is to play players you are confident are over rated.

(This is why I think that you should gain or lose at most 1 point for beating a new player (<10 games), since they will almost certainly be over or under rated at that point, but that's an issue for another time ;))

Hope this helps.
User avatar
tekelili
Posts: 1038
Joined: August 19th, 2009, 9:28 pm

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by tekelili »

nebula955 wrote:
tekelili wrote: I think this is a great idea nebula955. I also think you could provide a list of players no one will miss in ladder, or at least a simple rules to find out if a player match them and no one would miss him. That way all the players that are not important and are just currently being tolerated despite their meaningless, would have pretty clear how irrelevant is their belonging to ladder. that way they could have easier decide leave ladder levaing you and your friends alone to play toghether without dumbass anoying your heaven.
Just to clarify, it was not my idea. He threatened it, and I am not opposed to it.
Be a man and defend your wods: No one but you said "no one will miss you"

I supose you can not know every player feel about other member ladder quitng, so I imagine you are here talking about a selected group of "meaningfull players". And I think it would be fair for every ladder member not included in that list, know about their role of "meaningless members"
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
World Conquest II
WhiteMage
Posts: 21
Joined: August 24th, 2010, 3:08 am

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by WhiteMage »

Oook,
When I asked you to prove that you are not Nani, I did not accuse you by this. It was certainly not a personal attack from my side. I am sorry if you felt that way. It was a simple question for which due to current ladder settings you are not able to give a satisfactory answer. The point is this: noone in the ladder should be able to ask such question without getting a strong and satisfactory answer (rather than being ridiculed and being marked for being an idiot.) I suppose I would be considered an idiot asking the same question about Leo and Demo 2 weeks ago. I can ask many other such questions, which I should not be able to. The new ladder should be satisfactory for most, if not all players due to rules being enforced and trusted and there should be a new confidence of players not being able to cheat in very easy ways. With recent history of multiple cheatings revealed this is not likely to happen with the current ladder.

Modified Elo with exact formula in math + English language + source code that implements it backed by admin posts should be available to all players. I am sure that most players here do not know the exact formula and certainly would not be able to search for, identify, decipher, understand, and assess source code on their own.
Gallifax
Posts: 137
Joined: October 23rd, 2006, 5:36 pm
Location: Who cares?

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Gallifax »

Anyone who says there is not a big deal about double accounts , dont forget there is allways something dishonest about it. Do come good things from not being honest? Well in my xp in life thats a clear no, that is how all starts the bad attitude and all else.

No good things come from bad things...
User avatar
nani
Posts: 111
Joined: March 12th, 2009, 10:43 am

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by nani »

Gallifax wrote:I am getting more and more used to the fact that most people are cowards ... Do come good things from not being honest? Well in my xp in life thats a clear no, that is how all starts the bad attitude and all else.
This all sounds like wesnoth is life and we're taking it far too serious here, aren't we?
The word coward is as wrong as the necessity to be honest in all what you do in an online game imo.
I can distinguish pretty well what is real and what is not, I'm barely taking anything serious in here.
Everything I did had its reasons, I explained at least the reason for having an alias.
The way I used it had reasons as well, but for now I'm not willing to get into a paranoia discussion.

And, what a surprise, I agree with Dauntless, Oook and iirc Hummy and TBS here.
My summed up opinion is: I don't care if it's exactly the one person who registered the account is the one
I'm playing against (let your brother play). I neither care whether I'm playing the same guy I played in the
match before, but this time he has 200elo points more/less with a different account or not ... as long as
the conduct is good and I enjoy the game ... for whatever the purpose he or she is playing which account,
I wanna win and that's all that counts.

I like the idea of splitting the ladder into:
  • A serious (close to rl ... signing a contract) one-nick ladder
  • A multi-nick ladder with aliases for different purposes having a reference to the "original" nick who is playing the account. (I believe that was Scatha's idea iirc)
    e.g. nani playing shamans only, nani playing while multitasking, Dauntless and nani playing the Multi-account Captain_Caveman, ...
Of course the 2nd version implies the purposes sometimes cannot be proved, though I believe that kind of "fun"-ladder is what many players would like to have.
If not ... nani out :)

p.s.: and for those who again and again say it affects the elo, play version 1.
The Black Sword
Posts: 373
Joined: October 13th, 2008, 4:35 pm

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by The Black Sword »

A very quick post since I have to go.

First, I agree with pretty much all Oook has said.

For those who have disagreed with arguments like:
However, I will not reiterate arguments that have already been made
Don't worry, you don't need to reiterate them, a simple copy and past will do :wink: .
Honestly I haven't seen them but the thread is quite long and I (and he) could have missed them.

Finally I think there was only 1 real response which might affecymy argument by Kolbur, I think Velensk's argument was essentially this too, again apologies if i misses someone.
In the end it all comes down to how comfortable you are with relying on other players to restrain themselves to strict circumstances in which they use their different accounts. I agree that there is barely any effect on elo if you work under the assumption that multi-account users only use their alter egos in a restrictive way. If you drop that assumption (that's not unreasonable) there are indeed effects on the elo. I think everyone can easily agree on this so far
As I stated in my earlier post, I disagree. The ELO rating will accurately record the accounts chances of winning vs another account.
That's another important point btw, the ratings only have relative value vs other ratings.
Tondo
Posts: 21
Joined: February 28th, 2006, 3:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Tondo »

I dont find the idea of multiple accounts so appalling, though I never used multiple nicks myself. The question was if the rule should be enforced or dropped - I think that trying to enforce it will not be simple and introducing some rigorous identity checking system would kill the simplicity that so many people appreciate, and make the community less appealing to newcomers.

This game is fun, not a multimillion dollar business that needs to be monitored so closely.
Gallifax
Posts: 137
Joined: October 23rd, 2006, 5:36 pm
Location: Who cares?

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Gallifax »

@nani


Paranoid is someone who imagines things. We do not imagine things, you made that clear. For me it was not a suprise to see you having several accounts. You used many aliases in the past to play known Top- players to not loose reputation and yes you hide that fact.(Long before ladder)

"The word coward is as wrong as the necessity to be honest in all what you do in an online game imo" If you need a 2nd account for multitasking , since you cant obviously accept to loose with leoaccount, I think its the right word to use.

And yes you were not being honest, there is a pattern over years now.

So this is not real, so you are a just virtually dishonest.. ah I see.

So you are not taking this serious, ... right so that is why you have a 2nd account for so called "multitasking" , because you dont like to play bad with the leo account. You do realise how unreal this sounds?

If you were taking things not so serious then you would accept to play with one account only. Well I am not sure you can even understand this line of thinking.


Anyway this is not about you, just everyone who sets a bad example. And at the end as I said I got not even an issue with you and your behaviour or that of others, we both know you are hardly the only one, there are countless ones. As said I have gotten used to it, doesnt mean I have to like it, others wont either.Its an issue for ladder, distrust is not good.

I think you should still play the game.

Funniest part of this is you deserve spot one in ladder, you are a much better player then when I left ladder a year ago. Thats what makes it sad, you dont need a 2nd account and maybe you realise you never needed it, no one would have respected you less if you had lost more games. Yo would still be the best atm.

But do as you please you are old enough...

From ladderadmins we jst need a resolution , at the end thats all what I am interested in, apart from my personal view.

If people are so keen to have multiple accounts make them public, but I guess they wouldnt be so happy about that either, would kinda defeat the purpose of having one.


Edit: To precise the issue of distrust.... I am a very friendly guy normally. I used to be much more friendly here in this game. But ever since you and others started this kind of behaviour it let me become quite unfriendly with my behaviour in this game. This is all because of distrust. Line of thinking: They are not honest, why should I behave honorable towards them, who gives a f...

I will try to change that again , dont want to hurt those little few left here who are honest.
User avatar
tekelili
Posts: 1038
Joined: August 19th, 2009, 9:28 pm

Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by tekelili »

Gallifax: For me you are a top player in sportmanship. Something like you did playing your account after a wes break knowing your ranking would becomed destroyed give you all my credit. When I joined ladder I was hoping for players like you, and I am happy my last 2 ladder games were played with you instead someone like Cremember, that keep playing allias acounts when this isue is being discussed, showing how little care he has about our trust. I hope you the best and have fun playing ladder, but I fear they dont deserve you.
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
World Conquest II
Post Reply