Ladder Site Online...

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

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Paxe
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Paxe »

But, you agree with me that this should be cut off?

Sincerely

Paxe

Best computer game ever played?...... Wesnoth, The Battle for Wesnoth, of course!
Best computer game ever played?...... Wesnoth, The Battle for Wesnoth, of course!
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Rigor
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Rigor »

should it be? can you change anything ? no, because there is nothing you can do, if one player visits his neighbour and observes the game from there - or on his pc while hes playing if his skills are sufficient. you cant control it. you have to trust in your opponents. maybe the best lection for life :roll:
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Paxe
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Paxe »

Rigor, as you have answered, I can not avoid my opponents from cheating in the way I have described; but I had asked developers (the one that are game programers) to find a technical way to not allow doing this. Is it possible technically?

Sorry for my insistence but, in my opinion, if this can not be changed/reprogramed, fog should be off in ladder games. In this way, no cheating is possible at all, both players would have same information and would be a compensated game for sure. It will not be the same, of course, and will rest motivation in the games, but actually games are not serious.

I am convinced that lot of players have done this in their games and I can say that it is determinant for winning; It is another new factor to take in account than LUCK and way of playing.

Please, Wesnoth Programers, find a solution!

Thank you very much

Sincerely

Paxe

Best computer game ever played?...... Wesnoth, The Battle for Wesnoth, of course!
Best computer game ever played?...... Wesnoth, The Battle for Wesnoth, of course!
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Rigor
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Rigor »

one player visits his neighbour and observes the game from there
Is it possible technically?


i think it is not. else i would be really scared what wesnoth manages to do to your feet.
if this can not be changed/reprogramed, fog should be off in ladder games.
a very interesting thing you point out here, which would completely destroy the "surprise attack" which is a vital part of the highly entertaining "what is my opponent doing next" feling in-game.

if fog was off,

*) saving cash because of not recruiting would be no more option
*) you would always know the exact amount of gold your opponent has (yawn)
*) you can never ever make a feint attacks AND retreats
*) you will probably never convince your opponent in attacking a weak unit if u saw the massive army behind the fog.
*) there would be no more fair guessing games (did he pull the cavalry on the other side on weldyn?)
*) there would be no more traps - what a sad story

now think again if you really want to play such a game.
otherwise it would be a good idea.
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Cackfiend
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Cackfiend »

ladder site been down for over 24 hours now....
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D
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tekelili
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by tekelili »

Paxe wrote:Rigor, as you have answered, I can not avoid my opponents from cheating in the way I have described; but I had asked developers (the one that are game programers) to find a technical way to not allow doing this. Is it possible technically?
I just want give my opinion about this issue because games are really important in my life and I have a very meditated point of view:

I wouldnt care about cheating in any way.

I played chess for years online and I was aware anyone could use a computer program to improve their movements and beat me cheating... but, it´s that a problem? A player using a computer program just one time wouldnt cause many problems to a big comunity and if he uses always that computer program to make his moves, well, soon or later he will reach a ranking that really describe that computer program skill. So when you face him because you want an oponent of that ranking skill, you really get it.

In the same way, a player cheating always in wesnoth ladder will reach soon or later a ranking that describe their skill... when he is cheating. So if you want face an oponent whose ranking describe how difficult would be for you beat him, you will have just that.

But further more, it is really anyone going to play cheating more than say... 100 games? I doubt it. That would be terrible boring for anyone. Be aware that a high rank on wesnoth ladder wouldnt give anyone any kind profit. You wont earn money, girls wont pay you more attention (or boys or dogs... or whatever were your sex preference). You wont be invited to special tournaments or become any kind of celebrety. So, who is really going to waste his time in play a lot of games cheating when the only profit you can get playing wesnoth is get fun? Sure some childs or just inmature minds will do it for some games, but I am really sure they soon would become bored of donig it and would just quit playing or stop cheating. And, as I explained above, it is difficult they do a severe damage to your rank because a player that always cheat reach soon to his max rank... when cheating.

I am really sure most of ladder players wont never cheat just because they are mature humans that really understand how stupid would be do that. Would you like to become AI in your campaings more stupid by any kind of cheat? I think most of people prefer fun vs a victory empty of sense in any game without any kind of extra reward. But wesnoth has fun as only reward.
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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Paxe
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Paxe »

tekelili wrote:
I played chess for years online and I was aware anyone could use a computer program to improve their movements and beat me cheating... but, it´s that a problem? A player using a computer program just one time wouldnt cause many problems to a big comunity and if he uses always that computer program to make his moves, well, soon or later he will reach a ranking that really describe that computer program skill. So when you face him because you want an oponent of that ranking skill, you really get it.
Thanks for your answer tekelili I agree totally with you and
have thought and changed my point of view. As you say
above when you face that cheating opponents you get to
know which kind of players they are; and you never more play
with them

In Wesnoth, this facing probably wont get never but we
could do something:

When somebody is making a replay of the game that is
allready being played a message should be received like
when there are OOS problems. In that way the other player
would know that his/her opponent is probably trying to cheat.

You can decide next games never to play to such an opponent.

I think this wont be a problem for Game Programmers

OR IS IT?

Sincerely


Paxe
Best computer game ever played?...... Wesnoth, The Battle for Wesnoth, of course!
Yoyobuae
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Yoyobuae »

@Paxe: Why don't you do a little test? Get a friend that's more or less your same skill level, explain to him this cheat and ask him if your/him can purposely use the cheat in order to do a little test. In fact, take turns to do it.

Something tells me it won't really make as much of a difference as you say and the use of the cheat won't decide the battle.

If it does have an effect, it will probably be in the very early game. Later on it's rather easy to simply scout and keep track of most units. Maybe in really small maps (with few units) there will be a noticeable effect.
Yogibear
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Yogibear »

Paxe wrote:Please, Wesnoth Programers, find a solution!
As a Wesnoth programmer, i can tell you that it is impossible (well, depending on how much time you want to invest for cheating, but still).

The reason is, that wesnoth is open source. It means you can get the source code (which is linked on the home page), compile it yourself (which is described in the wiki) and get your very own wesnoth - and nobody will be able to notice.

If we build in a server message on people saving replays, that would have to be sent from the client. So you can just jump into the code, find the message and delete that part - nobody will notice you saved the replay.

Or you find the place that puts fog / shroud on the map. Prevent it from doing that and you don't even have to save replays all the time (which gets a little uncomfortable over time :P ).

So, we can't really seriously do anything about it without compromising open source - and that is not an option :wink: .
Smart persons learn out of their mistakes, wise persons learn out of others mistakes!
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Paxe
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Paxe »

Yogibear wrote: If we build in a server message on people saving replays, that would have to be sent from the client. So you can just jump into the code, find the message and delete that part - nobody will notice you saved the replay.

Or you find the place that puts fog / shroud on the map. Prevent it from doing that and you don't even have to save replays all the time (which gets a little uncomfortable over time :P )

Thanks for your answer. Now everything is more clear. Anyway,
what you explain about this 2 examples of cheating you must be
a programer. If cheater percentage is maybe 1%, there will be not
many programers in this "status"...

Reading your words I could guess that is not a big problem
sending this message to game chat. We could catch the non
programer cheaters!.

It is Just my opinion. Wesnoth has lot of good and very nice things
the only problem I found was this I described and the big adiction
anyone suffers playing it... Thanks for everybody involved in the
development of this fabulous game, also to the multiplayers ready
for playing that you can allways find them in the official hosts.

Sincerely

Paxe
Best computer game ever played?...... Wesnoth, The Battle for Wesnoth, of course!
Soliton
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Soliton »

Paxe wrote:Reading your words I could guess that is not a big problem
sending this message to game chat. We could catch the non
programer cheaters!.
If we don't allow them to save the game and turn autosaves off or prevent two wesnoth versions to run at the same time on the same computer and that laptop next to it and...

The only proper solution is to just let the server have the full game state which brings plenty of new problems with it. (Problems that can't nicely be solved even in theory.)

Play games without fog and ambushers if you're that worried.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott
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Cackfiend
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Cackfiend »

ladder site is down again =[
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D
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Rigor
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Rigor »

A lot of time has passed and i assume that the lack of posts here means that everything is fine so far.

after successfully adding the latest mappack which features 3 different ways to play games ("conservative" for guys who like the old maps, "all" for people who like to play also maps that some top map makers and players consider ladder-safe and "prototype" which gives u an insight into the newest maps or maps that look quite good but lack playtesting or design to push them to the "all" mappack.)

now to the meat: i would like to have your opinions on a changed ladder time setting. i find it is easy enough to make the first turns, but very harsh during a long game with a lot of units, and can often lead to awkward situations (for both players), such as:

*) both set game speed to 16
*) observers wont see anything for minutes...

- only to see everything at once because of the omnipresent shroud that both players activate to give the other player a disadvantage - (reduced thinking time once the opponent is finished).

*) you can further enhance the lack of time as the attacker when u move everything towards your opponent in a very short time, having a lot of time for yourself while your opponent has to react in 1 min 30 sometimes (this actually happened to me in a ladder game which was raging for 38 turns)

to be a bit more exact on my ideas, i would suggest that

*) the turn timer cannot drop below 3 minutes per turn, which i think would be hard but still sufficient. raising the maximum thinking time sky-high wouldnt made much sense to me, same with some obscure

*) "action" or "village number" boni. imagine you are the rusher holding 2 vills more than the other guy and have a malus for having fewer units/vills, i dont think its really fair to have a disadvantage when u have to defend.
Kolbur
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Kolbur »

Rigor wrote: ...

*) you can further enhance the lack of time as the attacker when u move everything towards your opponent in a very short time, having a lot of time for yourself while your opponent has to react in 1 min 30 sometimes (this actually happened to me in a ladder game which was raging for 38 turns)

...
This was only possible because the ladder timer settings were not used!
Instead i assume that it was the standard Wesnoth timer settings where the time can indeed go down to 1 min 30 sec which is why it sucks for serious matches.

The current timer settings for the ladder are as follows (see the FAQ):
Reservoir: 270
Init. Limit: 270
Turn Bonus: 200
Action Bonus: 20

This means that most of the time you have 4 min 30 sec for each turn which is also the maximum time. The time can go down to 3 min 20 sec but that rarely happens thx to the action bonus. In certain situations or on certain maps it can be not enough time. It is reasonable to increase reservoir and initial limit to 330 in those cases (only possible beforehand of course) or play without any timer at all.
Yogibear
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Yogibear »

Kolbur wrote:In certain situations or on certain maps it can be not enough time. It is reasonable to increase reservoir and initial limit to 330 in those cases (only possible beforehand of course)...
That's exactly the settings i use and feel quite comfortable with.
Smart persons learn out of their mistakes, wise persons learn out of others mistakes!
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