Ladder Site Online...

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

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Eskon
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Eskon »

The second replay had no indication of an intention of carlos' to retire from Wesnoth "again", as far as I can see. (Though it is quite funny to see the contrast between his complaints of having lost the one game on luck, and the second on the opponent's skill.) This is not the first time I've seen a "Wesnoth is all about luck, I'm gonna quit" post followed by a lot more played ladder games, with both losses and wins, either. If it really were all about luck, you'd think people would actually be able to quit playing!

I wondered about the seemingly pointless l33t5sp34k in this post, but apparently it's supposed to be a play on carlos' peculiar spelling of his username?
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Doc Paterson
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Doc Paterson »

Eskon wrote: it is quite funny to see the contrast between his complaints of having lost the one game on luck, and the second on the opponent's skill.
This:

http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A46%3A21

is a sarcastic dig at both the Fish, and Wesnoth/RNG.
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Death
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Death »

fascinating...


and, oh wow! hey, look, another tourney!!!


GO SIGN UP NOW!!!
Khramkov
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Khramkov »

NarajinX wrote:Yeah, 41 pages of this thread...no tournament yet?
Hello.

I want to develope tournament feature.
If this is required, then could anyone tell me conclusive requirements?

Thanks.
Dauntless
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Dauntless »

Its hard for me to keep track of all the posts around, but an "official" tournament, like ToC could be hosted, if possible. There are some private ones going around, but a bigger wesnoth tourney would be nice, so would be the avised but not realised ladder tourney.
As somebody asked a bit before, rating, commenting and posting replays is optional and varies a lot among players, so feel free to do so or not ;)
Eskon
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Eskon »

I recently thought how thoroughly cool it would be, just to start off, to hold a Top 16 ladder tournament - nothing but the Top 16 of the ladder, seeded into four KO rounds, facing off against each other to determine the Top 16 Ladder Champion. Each match would have to be best of five (and I'd increase the number of games for the semi-finals and finals). Such a tournament would probably make sense after the 1.8 release, once the new maps have become the sole and clear ladder standard. It would, however, rely on the willingness of the Top 16 people to enter, and a respected authority as leadership (ladder admin, one would hope).

Managing a free signup ladder tournament would be daunting (and we cannot all be dauntless) - Depending on the registration window I'd calculate a number of participants well beyond 50, maybe even 100. The ladder should start off smaller - hence 16 players - but still showcase as much high quality play as possible - hence the Top 16 of the ladder as participants. While such a tournament can still be managed manually, it's even better if automated code were to be created for it - it could hopefully be used for bigger tournaments later on.

Thoughts?
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eyerouge
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by eyerouge »

what
tesafilmchen has been doing a great work and has added both multi-ladder and team ladder support to the ladder code. Although it's not ready for release yet and is a rough and first early version of the team ladder function, it shows what is coming.

Finally all of you that want a 2vs2 (or x vs x ladder for that matter) can rest assured that this is on it's way in a near future.

Summed up specifics this far: Teams can be created with members in them. Each teams elo is then set to 1500 and when reporting team vs team is reported. Ladder looks like the one for current 1vs1, but with teams instead of individuals.

you
While we (actually just tesa ;) ) are coding on the new team stuff you need to somehow agree on what rule set and regulations you will be using for when/if you setup a 2vs2 ladder on the LoW.

Personally I think the admins should work something out and suggest it to the LoW community, and would hope to see some kind of dialogue between the players and the admin regarding these questions. By having had a healthy discussion you will also be ready to open up the 2vs2-ladder directly when the "feature full" and "stable" code is actually released.

sidenote - tournament
Whatever happened with the tournament? It was several months ago plans for it were announced. I've seen plenty of ideas and posts in here, but nobody has actually done anything beyond writing.

I must, again, voice my concern over the inactivity of the LoW community when it comes to these matters. The needed rules revisions and the fixing of the protection system, both of which have never happened in over a years, are basic things that should have been dealt with. (Recap for those that don't want to read 20 pages in here: The provisional protection system needs to be changed since it currently gives too huge protection to the veteran players, and also the K values need to be made higher for the veteran players, and that can only(?) be done by me and/or chains, and it will only be done when the LoW community via it's admins tell us it should be done. Clearly the democratical process and decision making isn't really working out since no decisions are ever made about these type of questions, and if they are I'd love an update and apologize for not seeing them...)

edit: sidenote II

We have a new coder in the house and would like to welcome mr. Khramkov to the team. His intentions are to add tournament support to the ladder, a built in and well integrated message system and smarty template support. We'll see how all that fares and hold our thumbs... Progress will be reported in here and can be seen in the /trunk as usual. Please notice that it will take long time before it's released if it's ever finished so don't plan on using it for the up and coming(?) tournament.
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tekelili
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by tekelili »

eyerouge wrote:what
tesafilmchen has been doing a great work and has added both multi-ladder and team ladder support to the ladder code. Although it's not ready for release yet and is a rough and first early version of the team ladder function, it shows what is coming.

Finally all of you that want a 2vs2 (or x vs x ladder for that matter) can rest assured that this is on it's way in a near future.
3 hurras for tesa :D :D :D
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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Death
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Death »

eyerouge wrote:sidenote - tournament
Whatever happened with the tournament? It was several months ago plans for it were announced. I've seen plenty of ideas and posts in here, but nobody has actually done anything beyond writing.

HELLOOOO

I'm currently hosting a second mini-tournament, after successful finish of the last one.

While not strictly open to ladder players, I would love for more ladder players to participate, but: 1) most ladder players probably don't even know this forum exists, much less check it regularly for anything (case in point: your post), 2) tmob hasn't responded to my emails asking to post a pre-written news blurb on the ladder page (i don't think he's active?)


registration is still open! go and sign up!!
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eyerouge
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by eyerouge »

Death wrote:
eyerouge wrote:sidenote - tournament
Whatever happened with the tournament? It was several months ago plans for it were announced. I've seen plenty of ideas and posts in here, but nobody has actually done anything beyond writing.

HELLOOOO

I'm currently hosting a second mini-tournament, after successful finish of the last one.

While not strictly open to ladder players, I would love for more ladder players to participate, but: 1) most ladder players probably don't even know this forum exists, much less check it regularly for anything (case in point: your post), 2) tmob hasn't responded to my emails asking to post a pre-written news blurb on the ladder page (i don't think he's active?)


registration is still open! go and sign up!!
Please keep this thread clean from posts that have nothing to do with the ladder - that way people will have an easier time finding whatever they seek in the thread-jungle in here. (If your tournament uses normal ladder rules for how a game is played though its okey since those games would be valid for both the ladder and may be reported etc as well as your tournament. Also, don't take this the wrong way - I love the initiative you show and that you take the time to arrange things - that's what a community is all about. :) )
Tesafilmchen
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Tesafilmchen »

Well i disagree :D, since noone is willing to actually host a tournament (except death ofc) and alot of people are crying for one im ok with a small advertisment.
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Death
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Death »

eyerouge wrote:Please keep this thread clean from posts that have nothing to do with the ladder
Image

All my tourney participants are ladder. Ladder settings and ladder-safe maps are all that are used. In fact, the only reason I'm hosting any of these damn things anyway is because (as tesa said) so many ladder players were clamoring about a tournament, I figured I'd host one.


These tournaments are by ladder players for ladder players... I mean, what else is there? If you want to play 1v1 against someone that knows what they're doing, you have to play ladder. If you want to play 2v2 with people that know what they're doing, your best bet is to make friends off the ladder. If you want to play 3v3 with people that know what you're doing, then you're the kind of person who's real life friends play video games, and that's great for you.


Seriously, this thread is ridiculous. The ladder should have it's own forum.

A case in point: here's another ladder suggestion I'd like to address: why not find the best less-luck mod available (perhaps Sauron's), and mandate it for all ladder games? It seems the competitive players are the ones that have the least enjoyable experience with the current RNG setup, and the ladder would be the perfect environment such a developing mod needs to evolve into a widely-accepted standard.

Besides the obvious logistical hurdles, I think this could be a great thing for Wesnoth, its players, and the ladder.
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Eskon »

A case in point: here's another ladder suggestion I'd like to address: why not find the best less-luck mod available (perhaps Sauron's), and mandate it for all ladder games?
That must be one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Why not? Because that's not Battle for Wesnoth. The mods aren't balanced to begin with, not the way the Default era is. None of the less-luck mods is anywhere near mainstream enough. Contrary to the constant whining and moaning and [censored], the majority of players and developers like the luck system just the way it is. The ladder is not a political tool for Wesnoth development and should never be abused like that. The ladder rules reflect the competitive game of Battle for Wesnoth as the developers have envisioned it; mods are mods.
Last edited by Eskon on March 14th, 2010, 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by hiro hito »

A case in point: here's another ladder suggestion I'd like to address: why not find the best less-luck mod available (perhaps Sauron's), and mandate it for all ladder games
That must be one of the best ideas I've ever heard.
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eyerouge
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by eyerouge »

Death wrote:
eyerouge wrote:Please keep this thread clean from posts that have nothing to do with the ladder
All my tourney participants are ladder. Ladder settings and ladder-safe maps are all that are used. /../

These tournaments are by ladder players for ladder players...
In such a case, and as I wrote in my last reply, please disregard my comment on the issue. :) While on the topic, it could be an idea to post that fact and the additional info you just wrote in the coming announcements, if such are made. Again - I salute the initiative. If only the leadership of the ladder had the same or let you announce the news on the ladder site I'm sure even more good things would come out of it...
I mean, what else is there? If you want to play 1v1 against someone that knows what they're doing, you have to play ladder. If you want to play 2v2 with people that know what they're doing, your best bet is to make friends off the ladder.
There are plenty of good, serious and friendly wesplayers that are not on the ladder (for whatever reason), and, there are of course those on the ladder that are clueless. As a matter of fact, I'd say that always goes for the majority of players of Wesnoth since the game has a too great of passer-bys: People that come and go and only play the game for a very short while to never again revisit it. In any case, my point is that the ladder, as any other social body, holds mixed players, as do the non-ladder forums where people gather.
Seriously, this thread is ridiculous. The ladder should have it's own forum.
I was against that while I was admin but for the ladder having it's on section within this forum (that said, admins in here gave it thumbs down since they don't want to be associated with a competitive aspect/the ladder). Reason why I never setup a forum of it's own for the ladder is that I believe it's absurde to divide the community/activity into 2 separate forums, especially in a FOSS prohect. Hence, it's better that there is no ladder forum than one that's separate, but preferably there would be a ladder section on this forum if I had a say...
A case in point: here's another ladder suggestion I'd like to address: why not find the best less-luck mod available (perhaps Sauron's), and mandate it for all ladder games? It seems the competitive players are the ones that have the least enjoyable experience with the current RNG setup, and the ladder would be the perfect environment such a developing mod needs to evolve into a widely-accepted standard.
a) If luck really is such a huge factor of the game - why do you think some players keep on beating the top contenders? Is it because they have "luck", all the time? Or perhaps because they have skills? One of those skills is to estimate the effects and risks of the RNG. The better player does not only have better overall strategy, he/she also has a good risk management and good b-plans for whenever the RNG goes into it's bad mood :P The same can be said about good poker players, and the sooner the community realizes that the RNG has very little to do with a players overall success on the ladder the better. This is however just a repeat of the eternal RNG-is-bad-discussion and it has been dealy with a million times in here. Please do a search and thrive in the answers. :P I'm sure you'll get plenty of perspective, as both sides have some points. In the end however, nobody hinders you or whoever from forking Wesnoth or using any mods you like. :)

b) If a mod would be implemented it would wreck the whole Elo system, since the system would then measure something else.

c) Multi-ladder support is already in the trunk for the ladder code, thanks to the great work of Tesa. You can always tell the admins to install the latest code, and start another ladder, where only the non-rng-mod is used. That way there would be two ladders, and none would interfere with what the other measures. (I do however advise against starting such a ladder until you know that there is a long-term coder on the mods you will use...)
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