Ladder Site Online...

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eyerouge
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by eyerouge » October 30th, 2009, 5:44 pm

Whatever people wish for matters not much in the end: The size of a tournament is determined by the number of participants - e.g. it can't be decided that there will be a huge tournament if not enough are interested in it, not unless there is an upper cap on participants.

Pragmatically it's also very unwise to aim at having a several months long (huge) tournament for a zillion obvious reasons, especially if it's the first time ever one is arranged on the ladder. Start smaller and build from there instead, to avoid fiasco that would also be a turn off for future tourneys.

An average ladder game lasts about 40 min to 1 hour. Playing best of 3 means that most match ups will end after only 2 games played, while some will require all 3 gams to be played. All in all, worst case scenario, a match up between two opponents will seldom, if ever, take more than 3 to 5 hours in total. In most cases it would however take less time than 3 hours. Having a requirement that each tournament contender plays at least one full match up a week doesn't seem far fetched or remotely as impossible to do as some hint it would be, at least not for the average ladder player.

As somebody already pointed out, Wes tourneys have already been around for several years. It would probably be helpful to learn from them and speak with whoever have been involved in arranging them in order to avoid pitfalls and to get a list of do and don't do's. Harvest the experience that's already around in the wesnoth community.

Have a clearly formulated goal and keep it simple stupid ;) At all time. Grandiose plans etc ate worth nothing if nobody can or will implement them.

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TheMasterOfBattle
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by TheMasterOfBattle » October 30th, 2009, 6:20 pm

Then I think perhaps a 16 or 32 player test tournament might be in order. Hoever I think something like this would be best. It would allow for turnamentsa bit more often. If the tournaments were limited to a set number of players.

Eskon
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Eskon » October 30th, 2009, 8:21 pm

Then post a signup notice for a micro tournament once you're ready. But start with a 32 limit at least. 16 people just isn't a ladder tournament, it's a "whoever was reading the ladder online thread recently plus a couple lucky guys who saw the announcement first" tournament. Actually I'd make it 64, which is still way less than half the number of players currently on the ladder, but I'm crazy like that.

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TheMasterOfBattle
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by TheMasterOfBattle » October 30th, 2009, 8:24 pm

Eskon wrote:Then post a signup notice for a micro tournament once you're ready. But start with a 32 limit at least. 16 people just isn't a ladder tournament, it's a "whoever was reading the ladder online thread recently plus a couple lucky guys who saw the announcement first" tournament. Actually I'd make it 64, which is still way less than half the number of players currently on the ladder, but I'm crazy like that.
Didn't I just say I wanted it to start small? :P If we got 64 players, I would split it up into 2 32 team tournaments based on timezone. :P

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Rigor
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Rigor » October 31st, 2009, 8:41 pm

good idea :)

later we do a large one.

and how will we make this tournament ? just wait for them to join the tournament or ask all of them per message?

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TheMasterOfBattle
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by TheMasterOfBattle » October 31st, 2009, 8:47 pm

Basically, there would be a sign-up period before a tournament would start.

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Cackfiend
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Cackfiend » November 1st, 2009, 9:31 pm

eyerouge wrote:
An average ladder game lasts about 40 min to 1 hour. Playing best of 3 means that most match ups will end after only 2 games played, while some will require all 3 gams to be played. All in all, worst case scenario, a match up between two opponents will seldom, if ever, take more than 3 to 5 hours in total. In most cases it would however take less time than 3 hours. Having a requirement that each tournament contender plays at least one full match up a week doesn't seem far fetched or remotely as impossible to do as some hint it would be, at least not for the average ladder player.

average ladder game, yes.


average tournament game, no.


people tend to be waaaaaaaaay more cautious in tournament games, which means much more defensive games trying to cut the luck factor down as much as possible. The average tournament game is much higher than 1 hour, especially after the first round of matches. This is why all the previous tournaments went on for so very long.


I absolutely agree with starting with a small tournament and go from there. Starting with a large 32 or 64 man tournament that WILL take months to finish is not the goal for an "occasional ladder tournament"



And as far as advertisement for the ladder tournaments go.... theres the ladder website! Very easy advertising for people who dont read the boards, but ALL ladder players read the ladder page =]
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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Cackfiend
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Cackfiend » November 1st, 2009, 9:32 pm

TheMasterOfBattle wrote:Basically, there would be a sign-up period before a tournament would start.
imo, lets start with a 1 week sign up period for a 16-man tournament, and go from there
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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Rigor
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Rigor » November 1st, 2009, 11:13 pm

every time i take a look in here, the number of players gets smaller. u sure u dont want to propose to play a 4 player tournament in the end ? :mrgreen:

Tesafilmchen
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Tesafilmchen » November 4th, 2009, 4:29 pm

Yay Tournament sounds fun

Participants: Open to all, just make a 1-2 week sign in timeline maybe.
Mode: KO-Mode, Best of 3 and just randomize all participants at the beginning to set up the opponents
Game Setting: timelimit enabled(but not the ladder minimum i suggest), obs allowed and a replay should be given at the end, and there should be a timespan in which the games are have to be finished (1-2weeks?)

Advertising...
after i missed the last 2v2 tournament because i only check the forum from time to time i would suggest to announce it at the ladder site, the forum(new thread) and maybe get the server admin to display a small text in the lobby (during sign-in time)

Place for the results: Since the laddersite is an elo ranking system it will be a bit hard to display the results built-in. So maybe an admin update the news regulary with a link to the standings/results/thread/etc. But this implies that we need a reliable person for the time of the tournament and the players have to send the outcome of the games.

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Death
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Death » November 4th, 2009, 7:13 pm

Anyone reading this thread interested in a sort of "warm-up" tournament, there's one open for registration here. Go sign up!

3-4 weeks, minimal commitment. (I emailed moab about putting a blurb up on the site, hopefully it goes up soon)

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Perun
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hello

Post by Perun » November 8th, 2009, 6:29 pm

Hi i just wanna say that i dont like that new ELO pointing idea.
Every player can chose against who he will play,and playing against better players brings more XP and its good for less good players. (Elvish fighter lvl1 gets 2 xp points when attacking/defending against lvl 2 Adept,same is with ladder) you lose some battles against top players and you don't lose much points and you learn more than simply observe games.
Anyway alot of top players avoid matches aginst low rated players cuz they lose alot of points and if you have good day and feel good as i sometimes you can defeat top rated player and if you are willing then you can take that chance.

Regards Perun.

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Cackfiend
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Re: hello

Post by Cackfiend » November 9th, 2009, 2:46 am

Perun wrote: Anyway alot of top players avoid matches aginst low rated players cuz they lose alot of points and if you have good day and feel good as i sometimes you can defeat top rated player and if you are willing then you can take that chance.

Regards Perun.
completely untrue, and is easily provable if u simply look at the recent games of all the top players

IMO u should only get 1 ELO point for beating someone with less than 400 points than you
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

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Perun
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@Cackfiend

Post by Perun » November 9th, 2009, 9:12 am

Yes Cackfiend its not 100% that all top players always avoid that matches.
But i remeber 100 times when i opend a ladder game and in lobby were like 4-5 top rated players and none going to mine,and when i close the game when nobody poped in i see them play in other ladder games opend afther mine with players in same range.
Its a fact that players fear "bad luck" lose form lower rated ones cuz they lose alot of points.
Lose one game if you are 1800 against somebody from 1400 you lose what ? 20-30 points right?
and you need to win 3-4 matches with players in your range to regain that points back.
Its true that not all players avoid the low rated like Dauntlles he always camed to mine ladder matches (and beat the hell out of me) but i learned alot from that matches and i didnt lose much and he gained 1-4 points i think that's fair.
And i think the top rated players should win more points (1-5) from
lower rated ones their time worths something right?

Pozdrav.

Yogibear
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Re: Ladder Site Online...

Post by Yogibear » November 9th, 2009, 3:18 pm

As you described, i don't join games of players below say 1700 points. It's not because i am afraid to lose, it's because i don't want to appear as someone looking for cheap prey. And i also admit, that it is more challenging most of the time to play people within your own skill class.

However, most of the time, i host ladder games myself. If so, i play anyone that joins. And interestingly enough, many times it is low ranked players who do so (you can check my latest opponents for that). If i want to play someone equally rated, i normally will have to ask him directly (or sometimes i get asked myself).
One thing might add to that, though: I am not listed in the ladder with the nick i use for playing, because my forum account is different and i can't login with my ladder nick anymore since someone else got that as forum account (and i don't know his password :P ). So maybe some players don't know about my rating when they join.

Edit:
Actually, i thought that most players enjoy to play someone of their own strength. I am surprised to see that this might not be the case.

Edit 2:
Oh, btw, if you want to check my opponents, search for "yogi" :wink: .
Smart persons learn out of their mistakes, wise persons learn out of others mistakes!

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