Old Maps, New Maps, Map Names and Map Flames

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bert1
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Post by bert1 »

Does anyone else think Charge might be due for a rename? There was originally a straight road between the two keeps if I remember right, hence it was possible to charge down the middle. The map has changed a lot, though (and looks much much nicer), and any charging is impossible.

EDIT: sorry, that's a bit OT.

As for gameplay, I feel happier as player 2, just because two of P1's villages seem so out on a limb. I often lose that one on the right hand side when I'm P1.
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

bert1 wrote:Does anyone else think Charge might be due for a rename? There was originally a straight road between the two keeps if I remember right, hence it was possible to charge down the middle.
As a matter of fact I'd love to do this. I haven't though because I figured that a lot of people would be attached to the old name, for sentimental reasons. Truly though, it's an entirely different map than the original Charge (which was unbalanced in just about every way imaginable).

Some opinions on this renaming idea would be nice.
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pg
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Post by pg »

Doc Paterson wrote:As a matter of fact I'd love to do this. I haven't though because I figured that a lot of people would be attached to the old name, for sentimental reasons. Truly though, it's an entirely different map than the original Charge (which was unbalanced in just about every way imaginable).

Some opinions on this renaming idea would be nice.
I know you would love to rename all my work and claim it as your own. Could you please stop bashing my old work, it was perfectly fine for the version of Wesnoth it was made for. I find the disrespect you repeatedly go out of your way to show me, quite immature.

Frankly, I don't give a **** about Wesnoth anymore, but that's mainly because I had my maps stolen from me even though I was supposedly the maintainer. I was offered no warning or chance to give input on any of the changes to my maps while Doc Paterson could change them at will. No one even tried to contact me. When I found out they were being changed right before the 1.0 release I complained to Sirp. Sirp basically said, "too bad I put someone else in 100% control of them".

I talked to Doc Paterson long ago in PMs and he said he respected my work but seemed to do anything but. Sirp said I had to work through him to do any changes to my maps. I got pissed and have since had no interest in providing work for thieves. I even asked for my maps to be removed but that was not honored either.

Technically the maps I made are under GPL, but I find the whole situation distasteful. I would have never submitted any work for Wesnoth had I realized this would happen. A word of warning once you submit work to Wesnoth it's not yours anymore, it's Sirp's. He will do whatever he arbitrarily pleases with it including not allowing you to work on it anymore. Maybe I should have spoken up sooner, but I've moved on. I just got mad again seeing Doc Paterson's comment.

The politics of Wesnoth are disgusting. For me to defend or even control my own maps I would have to build a Wesnoth political backing on the forums or dev team. I just wanted to make maps I enjoyed.

On a side note I find it funny how Doc Paterson repeatedly claims superior knowledge than all others but doesn't play in tournaments nor posts any of his holy information.

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Post by Clonkinator »

pg wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote:As a matter of fact I'd love to do this. I haven't though because I figured that a lot of people would be attached to the old name, for sentimental reasons. Truly though, it's an entirely different map than the original Charge (which was unbalanced in just about every way imaginable).

Some opinions on this renaming idea would be nice.
I know you would love to rename all my work and claim it as your own. Could you please stop bashing my old work, it was perfectly fine for the version of Wesnoth it was made for. I find the disrespect you repeatedly go out of your way to show me, quite immature.

Frankly, I don't give a **** about Wesnoth anymore, but that's mainly because I had my maps stolen from me even though I was supposedly the maintainer. I was offered no warning or chance to give input on any of the changes to my maps while Doc Paterson could change them at will. No one even tried to contact me. When I found out they were being changed right before the 1.0 release I complained to Sirp. Sirp basically said, "too bad I put someone else in 100% control of them".

I talked to Doc Paterson long ago in PMs and he said he respected my work but seemed to do anything but. Sirp said I had to work through him to do any changes to my maps. I got pissed and have since had no interest in providing work for thieves. I even asked for my maps to be removed but that was not honored either.

Technically the maps I made are under GPL, but I find the whole situation distasteful. I would have never submitted any work for Wesnoth had I realized this would happen. A word of warning once you submit work to Wesnoth it's not yours anymore, it's Sirp's. He will do whatever he arbitrarily pleases with it including not allowing you to work on it anymore. Maybe I should have spoken up sooner, but I've moved on. I just got mad again seeing Doc Paterson's comment.

The politics of Wesnoth are disgusting. For me to defend or even control my own maps I would have to build a Wesnoth political backing on the forums or dev team. I just wanted to make maps I enjoyed.

On a side note I find it funny how Doc Paterson repeatedly claims superior knowledge than all others but doesn't play in tournaments nor posts any of his holy information.
Wow, don't get franky. Nobody forces you to make stuff for Wesnoth if you don't want to.

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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

That's one disadvantage of Wesnoth's way - you tend to lose the help of people who want to keep control over derivatives of their work. IMO, it's not a loss worth considering in comparison with the benefits of free information. That said, it doesn't help anything when the community or developers annoy potential contributors through other channels, too.
Last edited by Elvish_Pillager on July 6th, 2007, 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Doc Paterson »

pg wrote: I know you would love to rename all my work and claim it as your own. Could you please stop bashing my old work, it was perfectly fine for the version of Wesnoth it was made for.
I have absolutely zero desire to take credit for something as feeble as those old maps. If you think that they were "perfectly fine" for the version of wesnoth that they were made for,

* * * install the old version, I'll do the same, and play against me as player 2. Better yet, you be Loyalists or Elves, and I'll be Northerners, Drakes or Knalgans. * * *

(Do note that two full years ago, knowledge of map balance was not even remotely as refined as it is today, and I myself did not fully understand just how unbalanced the popular maps of that time period were. I didn't post that old Charge to mock you- Though it is very unbalanced like I said, it was a visual example of the map changing so completely as to no longer rightfully hold the old name.)
pg wrote:
Frankly, I don't give a **** about Wesnoth anymore, but that's mainly because I had my maps stolen from me even though I was supposedly the maintainer. I was offered no warning or chance to give input on any of the changes to my maps while Doc Paterson could change them at will. No one even tried to contact me. When I found out they were being changed right before the 1.0 release I complained to Sirp. Sirp basically said, "too bad I put someone else in 100% control of them".
Let's not act as though I took control of the multiplayer maps by accident, or by some freak chance of me being in the right place at the right time. I was the dominant multiplayer player of the time period, and was chosen for the job because other good players thought so, and because of an interest in maps that coincided with my playing abilities. If you recall, you used to be dominated by Sylma and Telly all the time, who couldn't touch any of us (many of the players who became today's MP devs) when we faced them. The developers wanted to put the best players in charge of balancing, and you were not amoung them.
pg wrote:
Technically the maps I made are under GPL, but I find the whole situation distasteful. I would have never submitted any work for Wesnoth had I realized this would happen. A word of warning once you submit work to Wesnoth it's not yours anymore, it's Sirp's. He will do whatever he arbitrarily pleases with it including not allowing you to work on it anymore.
Yeah, what an injust, nasty guy that Dave is.
pg wrote:
I've moved on.
pg wrote: I find it funny how Doc Paterson repeatedly claims superior knowledge than all others but doesn't play in tournaments nor posts any of his holy information.
Been keeping track of the tournaments have you?

Been reading every post I make to see that I haven't posted anything Holy, have you?

Been keeping track of my "pg bashing", have you?

Moved on, have you? :P

As for this-
pg wrote: I find it funny how Doc Paterson repeatedly claims superior knowledge than all others but doesn't play in tournaments nor posts any of his holy information.
Of all the many players that have posted replays in the replay archive, I have far and away posted the most. If I don't know what I'm talking about, that should be apparent in any one of those 100+ replays.
Do take a look. I've never said I was a great player- It has been a consensus formed by others- developers, users and friends that have played me over the course of my involvement with the game.

I've not played as much lately because I've had visual problems related to mild absence-seizure epilepsy, that worsen greatly with prolonged eye strain. Most friends on the server and site know about this- It's not a secret. Because I've not been able to play as much in recent times, I've contributed to competitive multiplayer in other ways; organizing the three TOC tournaments, which have been a positive force for the community. I still watch about 20-25 serious MP games a week, so as to stay current with any imbalances/abuses/new ideas that present themselves.

At any rate, thank you for the wonderfully bitter attack. I do suggest that you do as you've claimed to have done, and truly,
move on.
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pg
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Post by pg »

Doc Paterson wrote:I have absolutely zero desire to take credit for something as feeble as those old maps. If you think that they were "perfectly fine" for the version of wesnoth that they were made for
This isn't bashing my work? :shock:
(Do note that two full years ago, knowledge of map balance was not even remotely as refined as it is today, and I myself did not fully understand just how unbalanced the popular maps of that time period were. I didn't post that old Charge to mock you- Though it is very unbalanced like I said, it was a visual example of the map changing so completely as to no longer rightfully hold the old name.)
Really? Anyhow if I kept working on my own map I would have made a way to keep it themed as I wanted(Charge!). Your take on my maps has totally lost many things I intended. I didn't want my work balanced by someone who has no proof of balance except his own opinion. I would rather they have been discontinued. After all with your superior knowledge you'd have been able to make new maps from scratch. Hell, they would even have been better not having been burdened with my ignorance. :twisted:
Let's not act as though I took control of the multiplayer maps by accident, or by some freak chance of me being in the right place at the right time. I was the dominant multiplayer player of the time period, and was chosen for the job because other good players thought so, and because of an interest in maps that coincided with my playing abilities.
Sirp offered a similar position to me and Telly but we both decided to turn it down. We wanted to make real changes, and we knew it would never fly. Wesnoth was well balanced enough to be fun. It really hasn't changed all that much, despites all the minor changes back and forth. I find your ego showing here though, claiming to be the dominant player. What proof do you have of that? :wink:
If you recall, you used to be dominated by Sylma and Telly
Not true, I traded games with Telly on a regular basis, but I was weaker vs a variety of other players. I never played Sylma that I remember. I really never played that much compared to some.
The developers wanted to put the best players in charge of balancing, and you were not amoung them.
Still personal I see here. Claiming you are superior without proof. I quit Wesnoth. It's a [censored] game for competition. Even with the timer it still takes years.
Yeah, what an injust, nasty guy that Dave is.
He was in this case. Why is that impossible to believe? Maybe he'll have something to say on the matter.
Been keeping track of the tournaments have you?

Been reading every post I make to see that I haven't posted anything Holy, have you?

Been keeping track of my "pg bashing", have you?

Moved on, have you? :P
Doesn't take much time to read a forum every few weeks. Shame Wesnoth doesn't gets as many interesting flame wars like it used to. It's easy to get a sense of a person and see their general attitudes fairly quick.
I've never said I was a great player- It has been a consensus formed by others- developers, users and friends that have played me over the course of my involvement with the game.
I guess you claiming to the dominant player above was just an error then?

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Post by Sapient »

I don't think the map needs to be renamed... although it definitely has changed in style. BTW, why do you take it personally when someone rebalances your map, pg? My advice is just take some deep breaths and meditation because there's absolutely no reason to angry about something like that. And to TL -- let the moderators handle the moderation here, please.
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."

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Post by Dave »

pg wrote:A word of warning once you submit work to Wesnoth it's not yours anymore, it's Sirp's. He will do whatever he arbitrarily pleases with it including not allowing you to work on it anymore.
This is true as far as it goes. Once you submit something to Wesnoth you have to agree to put it under the GPL. This means that on the official version of Wesnoth the developers can choose its future.

However, I would like to admit making a mistake in this instance. I should have given Doc Paterson the choice between allowing pg control over the map or removing the map from the game.

In general though, it's important to remember that once you submit something to the game, other people are likely to do work based on that work. If you make a map and then developers spend time working out balance issues, you can't expect to suddenly come along and say "wellllll I've just decided I don't want you using my map anymore, so you can't!"

If we allowed that, we'd all lose a lot of time.

After all, if the GPL allowed that kind of thing, I could suddenly declare, "I don't like the way Wesnoth is going these days.....I've decided no-one is allowed to use the core source I wrote anymore unless the community raises $xxxxx and pays it to me!"

David
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PingPangQui
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Post by PingPangQui »

As I'm not involved in this in anyway my knowledge about this is only based on this discussion. Thus please forgive me if I misinterprete something. However to me the whole matter can be narrowed down to the following.
pg wrote:"(...)I had my maps stolen from me even though I was supposedly the maintainer. I was offered no warning or chance to give input on any of the changes to my maps while Doc Paterson could change them at will. No one even tried to contact me. When I found out they were being changed right before the 1.0 release (...)."
Displeased due to that is natural and comprehensible.
Dave wrote:"However, I would like to admit making a mistake in this instance. I should have given Doc Paterson the choice between allowing pg control over the map or removing the map from the game."
Which sounds like an apology to me.

As a matter of the fact, those changes can't and shouldn't be reversed since to much work has been spent on those maps ever since. It's a pity that you, pg, abandoned Wesnoth due to that matter since you seemed to have brought quite alot of good work into that project. However you have also to understand (which I actually think you do) that publishing sth. under GPL means that others may use your work within the terms of that license.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

I think the map's name should be changed for several reasons -

- It's a common single word.
- It definitely isn't about charging.
- It's got the same name as an attack special, for goodness' sake.

On the other hand, I can't come up with any good names just now...
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.

bert1
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Post by bert1 »

Sunken Road
A New River
Bitter Creek
The Old Highway
Waterway
Flooded Ravine
Abandoned Road
Barge
Canal of Gnats
Broken Road

Something with a name in it, like Sullas or Isar, but I don't know Wesnoth history enough to make a sensible suggestion.

Nothing very imaginative yet, I'll keep thinking.
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Post by Doc Paterson »

pg wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote:I have absolutely zero desire to take credit for something as feeble as those old maps. If you think that they were "perfectly fine" for the version of wesnoth that they were made for
This isn't bashing my work?
"Bashing" is your word, and not mine. I've said that the balance was really bad, yes- Even for the time period, the balance was really, really bad. I never said that I didn't criticize these maps. If you want to consider comments related to the horrible balance of the original Charge and Blitz "bashing," I won't waste any time arguing.


Doc Paterson wrote:](Do note that two full years ago, knowledge of map balance was not even remotely as refined as it is today, and I myself did not fully understand just how unbalanced the popular maps of that time period were. I didn't post that old Charge to mock you- Though it is very unbalanced like I said, it was a visual example of the map changing so completely as to no longer rightfully hold the old name.)
pg wrote:Really? Anyhow if I kept working on my own map I would have made a way to keep it themed as I wanted(Charge!). Your take on my maps has totally lost many things I intended.
Why don't you tell us "what you intended?" And please do describe what a balanced example of that concept would look like.

Your concept of the "quick duel map" or "players rush forward into battle" was/is hopelessly simplistic, doesn't work for competitive multiplayer, never did, and never will. Like your old maps, that concept skews things towards the player one side massively, to the point of it being practically impossible for the second player to compete. You doubted the existance of the player one advantage from the very beginning, and still resisted the evidence when it began to appear. You know that we talked about this extensively on the server back in the early days, so don't play dumb, and don't act as though I didn't try to work with you in the beginning. The simple fact is that you could not have been left in charge of your maps because your understanding of the game was critically flawed and solidified by your own stubborness.

Yes, we probably should have just kicked those maps to the curb right away, but I kept them around and made them playable, because early users were accustomed to them.
pg wrote: I didn't want my work balanced by someone who has no proof of balance except his own opinion.
Proof, proof, proof. Read above. If you need raw evidence, check the early pages of the archive to see the many abuses of the player one advantage. Better yet, ask any of our good players whether or not they agree with my general guidelines for map balance. The "proof" is everywhere, if you feel like bothering to look.
pg wrote: you'd have been able to make new maps from scratch. Hell, they would even have been better not having been burdened with my ignorance. :twisted:
No doubt. :wink:
pg wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote:Let's not act as though I took control of the multiplayer maps by accident, or by some freak chance of me being in the right place at the right time. I was the dominant multiplayer player of the time period, and was chosen for the job because other good players thought so, and because of an interest in maps that coincided with my playing abilities.
Wesnoth was well balanced enough to be fun. It really hasn't changed all that much, despites all the minor changes back and forth. I find your ego showing here though, claiming to be the dominant player. What proof do you have of that? :wink:
See above for me repeating my original response to you about "proof." Feel free to ask any of the serious players who played during that time period (Dragonking, for example) whether or not I tended to dominate the majority of games I played. That's not a matter of opinion- it's just what happened- and again, feel free to have a look through the replay archive.

On the subject of proof, if you'd like further proof of just how misguided your concepts of the game were, please do take me up on the challenge above. Install a version of Wesnoth with your original Charge, and we'll play.
pg wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote:]If you recall, you used to be dominated by Sylma and Telly
Not true, I traded games with Telly on a regular basis, but I was weaker vs a variety of other players. I never played Sylma that I remember. I really never played that much compared to some.
Sounds like a great guy to put in charge of balancing maps. Anyways, arguing about who used to own you :P is probably a waste of time, but for what it's worth, the core point here is that Sylma was the dominant competitive MP player of the first era of Wesnoth, won the tournament that you organized during that time period (which was, incidentally, shortly before I began to learn about the game), and couldn't even win a match against any of the good players of the next era (same with Telly). My point above was a simple "who was actually qualified for this position" question, restating the fact that playing this game well is a requirement for good map making.
Doc Paterson wrote: I quit Wesnoth. It's a [censored] game for competition.
Good to know.
Doc Paterson wrote:Been keeping track of the tournaments have you?

Been reading every post I make to see that I haven't posted anything Holy, have you?

Been keeping track of my "pg bashing", have you?

Moved on, have you? :P
pg wrote: Doesn't take much time to read a forum every few weeks. Shame Wesnoth doesn't gets as many interesting flame wars like it used to.
You really are nostalogic for the good old days, aren't you? At any rate, do you mean to tell me that you've been spending time trolling a forum for a game that you hate, that you renounced and quit, to see if anyone has been "bashing" old, unbalanced maps? You must know as well as I do that that's pathetic, and a very sad use of your time and energies.

I've never said I was a great player- It has been a consensus formed by others- developers, users and friends that have played me over the course of my involvement with the game.
pg wrote:I guess you claiming to the dominant player above was just an error then?
You really should stop to think a bit before posting whatever vindictive comeback pops into your head. I did say that I dominated during that time period. Dominance is relative to the general skill level and time period of the playing pool in question. Wesnoth users will make up their own minds about the skill, expertise and/or game knowledge of any given player. I often tell users to humble themselves- that they should not assume to know better than players who have spent a lot of time mastering the game. This is often misread as arrogance on my part (though I feel that I'm simply confronting their own "I-know-best-and-you-are-all-wrong, this-is-unbalanced" arrogance.). You may want to read my long response to Lunar2 in this thread: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... c&start=15
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Post by Dave »

I would like to clarify that when I said I made a mistake, the mistake was that holding onto the maps is really not worth the hassle of, well.....of having the Wesnoth community subjected to outbursts such as in this thread. Rather, in retrospect it'd have been easier to just develop better quality maps from scratch.

Especially considering that Doc Paterson had advised me at the time that he felt that the maps were of marginal quality to begin with, and since he is the map designer I have and do express confidence in, I should have taken his advise and asked him to remove the maps.

Oh well, better late than never: Doc, if it's not too much trouble, how about we simply remove all of pg's maps (including derivatives) from the game, and make fresh, high quality maps from scratch?

Not because we feel any moral obligation to; simply because it will end up producing the highest quality content for the game. It'll also likely be less emotionally draining in the long run than having to defend ourselves from the kind of accusations being thrown around in this thread.
pg wrote: Technically the maps I made are under GPL, but I find the whole situation distasteful.
They are not 'technically' under the GPL. They are under the GPL. This is an agreement that we require of all content submitted to the game. We base development very heavily around the freedoms allowed in the GPL, and expect people to understand what they are agreeing to.

Contributors of content should take responsibility for agreeing to have their content licensed in this way. There's nothing 'technical' about what we are doing. We are not trying to find some 'loophole' in the GPL to 'steal' people's content. We have been entirely open about how our development procedure works.

If you submit something to Wesnoth then you are licensing it to us under the GPL, and this permits us to change it if we wish. Once we have invested time and effort into changing it, you cannot suddenly say "oh I don't want you to use that anymore!" That would cause a huge waste of development effort.

David
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Dave wrote:Oh well, better late than never: Doc, if it's not too much trouble, how about we simply remove all of pg's maps (including derivatives) from the game, and make fresh, high quality maps from scratch?

Not because we feel any moral obligation to; simply because it will end up producing the highest quality content for the game.
This is a good idea in some ways, but I think the main issue here is that the current, balanced versions of these two maps (Charge and Blitz) are literally nothing like the originals, that they have become completely unique entities that are no more similar to those originals than most any other randomly selected usermade map. Everything has been reworked: the fronts have been cleaned up, the heavy terrain patches have been plugged, the entire aesthetic of the map has been remade, the dimensions have changed, the economic plan has been wiped away and recreated, most villages have been removed, and those that remain have been moved, to say nothing of the fact that the insurmountable P1 advantage has been done away with. All in all, probably about 80 percent (possibly more) of the hexes have changed. I think that there does come a point when a map can no longer hold a given name, when that name fails to descibe it ("Charge?") and vaguely references an older, completely different design.

It would be interesting for someone to make a list of distinguishing qualities of the old Charge (taking all 6 factions into account), and comparing them to the distinguishing characteristics of Modern Charge. For example, distinguishing fronts, barriers and how they affect each faction, etc, the fact that both have generally swampy areas to the right(P1)/left(P2) of the respective keeps (though those areas were extremely unbalancing in the original Charge, for many factional combinations), etc etc.

That said, I have mixed feelings about this, and would certainly appreciate opinions from both sides of the issue regarding renaming/not renaming/ditching the maps/keeping the maps. If Dave really wants them out though, that will settle it.
Last edited by Doc Paterson on July 6th, 2007, 5:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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