SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

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Golbeeze
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Post by Golbeeze »

Well I think the "cut by 50%" sounds like a good idea. The only problem I see is that starting with 800 gold will make it too easy. That has a simple solution though: start with less gold! I for one would like to see the income and enemy development cut in half.
My_Own_Minion: get rid of the scientist, i can take the blind guy

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MCP
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Post by MCP »

Do not cut back on the number of enemies.
My alternative:
The bottleneck is obviously the battle calculations engine. As the number of strikes/dam rise, the time to calculate gets ridiculous. It appears to me as if the AI is not cache-ing battle calcs for each unit. This is why FM failed HARD later in the game, or earlier with berserk. It would continuously recalculate the battle results, and with such a huge map it would exacerbate things.

Therefore:
1. Reduce enemy upgrades over time. Adjust mobile bosses and regular bosses.
2. Reduce initial enemy toughness/upgrades.
3. Reduce gold dropped by enemies significantly.
4. Adjust shop(take a good guess and play test from there)
5. Adjust starting gold slightly.
6. Do NOT reduce the number of enemies.

Basically this can only be accomplished through play testing. I'd at least take a stab in the dark though to get it started.
edit: Well maybe not a stab in the dark ;p. If enemies' upgrades growth rate is cut by 50%, then the gold should be cut by 50%. Healing should be slightly cheaper maybe.
Hmm, this will make 80% resists berserk/rage too easy...? I wonder if it will be difficult enough.

edit2:
Okay here's how I would start with the changes.
1. Reduce the enemy upgrades over time. Make bosses a lot weaker across the board, fix later.
3. Reduce the gold dropped by enemies.

Keep the rest the same and start there.
Mabuse
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Post by Mabuse »

hehe, reducing number of enemies was never what i had in mind.
it will (should) all stay the same, except the stats are overall lower.

therefore the game can last longer, and the maps/gameplay can be made more complex -
even campaigns may be imaginable

but its great that these are two basically positive votes for that.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
Mabuse
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Post by Mabuse »

muahahaha -
have i mentioned that 1.6 is simply great :D

as said i found out that OBJECTS added to units are now written and accessable via the unit variables.

that allows to make A LOT OF STUFF without rewriting the whole shop-system (as stf currently does) and so on.

for example we may easily access single weapons, delete single weapons, grade single weapons up, check already exiting specials, allow or restrict specific weapons specials combinations

but thats only as a side-note.



one of the more actual benefits is, as old sxplayers may remember, and what was also rasied again in the last posts, is the performance problem on combat calculations with high stats.

one try to speed up these calculations was to implement a "non-luck-mod" which would simply set the CTH (chance to hit) of every weapon to 100% and use the terrain defnse as an additional factor for the damage. the outcome would be near the mathematical average.
(i say near since the system tends to round down in general, so yo may lose strikes x1 or strike x2 damage due to rounding (which is % ok in high damage/strike, but can have more % effect in low damage/strike calcs)

for example 10-2 against a unit with 50% terrain def, would no longer do 0,10 or 20 damage, instead it wil do 10x0.5x2=10 damage always.

it is clear that this would seriously effect the gameplay though, especially the early gameplay.
in later game, when 30 strikes bog down the game engine, you anyway EXSPECT soemthing around the average damage since nobody wants a 20 miss streak, or exspect to hit 30 times.

rng would (or should) average itslef on these high numbers, so this could be seriously an alternative to speed up damage calculations

the good thing is: this is no longer fiction, i just implemented and tested the new feature -
to allow maximum customisation i simply made a right-click option for PLAYER 1 only. it will be available from turn 2 on. the host may activate it at any time he wants then.

i just need to make another "are you sure ?" check since the change isnt reversible, and it may happen that a player (even a host who knows what he is doing) may click wrong, after all there are also potions in the right click section


im so glad that this feature is now available, i am still interested what you think about it -
maybe it should be only available from turn 50 on ? or even higher ?

or not at all ?


it basically works like a charm, i noticed that the crossbow (default weapon ;)) of a cavalry didnt get converted (for whatever reason), this is acceptable though, since i coudlnt find any other weapons that werent "unluckyfied". all custom weapons got unluckyfied.

all creeps on maps got unluckyfied, new recruits wil get unluckyfied after this option got triggered, as well as post-spawning units will be unluckyfied ON SIGHT. units that are already unluckyfied wont get unluckyfied again.

i included all specials that affect CTH into the code:

magical, marksman, counter, focus, Precision Focus, sniping, masivestrike, hard_magic, good_balance, precision, circle, superiority

let me know if there are more so the PACK can be played with all existing eras.

as said 1.6 is really great, i simply used the original unluckyfy-mod from pauxlo and added a few more specials, as well changed the triggering conditions, but it was already in a good to use shape (well, i also cut the messages out), no big changes were needed
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
Mabuse
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Post by Mabuse »

as another note i need seriously someone who writes a tutorial for SX, this tutorial could be even called in game perhaps

the tutorial could include basic strategies, basic guide for good character builds (and possible no-go's), and an explantation how some things work.

so good players wanted who wnat to spend a bit of time here,my english just sucks and i feel already pity with the guys who read this tbh.

of course i may edit add or change some lines,

---------------

for example i could explain why you DONT save money if you buy hammer of rage in shop for 75 gold if you are a dwarfen fighter.

for the untrained eye it may look like a good deal - pay 75 gold and get a weapon with a 250 gold upgrade. but they forget that hammer of rage do 6-3 damage, while the dwarfen hammer does 19-2 when on level 3.

if we take the BASIC prices for weapons (which will rise, btw) damage= 20 gold and strike=75 gold to compare these two weapons


hammer of range 6-3, cost:75 gold, has rage (value of rage : 250 gold)
dwarfen hammer 19-2

so since a strike cost 75 gold, we simply nullify the buy cost of the hammer and substract a strike. having 6-2. dwarfen ahmmer has also 2 srikes, but 13 more damage.
13 more damage have a value of 260 gold. so if you woudl buy rage on dwarfen hammer you woudl save 10 bucks in the end.

10 bucks dont seem a lot, but its gets obvious that things are not alway as they seem on first look, getting the rage hammer for a dwarf is actually waste. other heroes may be good with it, but dwarf can better use his default hammer and grade it up later.

EDIT:
The only Reason to buy hammer of Rage for dwarf is if you plan to use it in the EARLY Game, right after the start - then you are better off with getting the hammer)

---------------------

but these calculations are not needed for the tutotrial that YOU write, i want more basic builds, strategies and so on.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
Max
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Post by Max »

a tutorial would really be a nice thing. i just tried it and i've got not the slightest idea how to survive the first 10 rounds. it's incredible hard - maybe that's where Xtreme comes from^^

does anybody have a replay for 1.6?
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Golbeeze
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Post by Golbeeze »

Mabuse, I think the unluckify system sounds great! I say make it available on a high turn, like 50. Perhaps later, I haven't played in 1.6 so I don't know whereabouts it gets laggy now. I have noticed the AI seems to be a bit slower in 1.6, but that could just be me.
I would make the tutorial for you, but I have far too much work on my plate as it is right now. If nobody has made it by mid-may I'll be able to do it. Hopefully someone will get around to it before then, though!

Max2008, what difficulty did you play it on? Did you play alone? What map was it? You could always try an easier difficulty and with other players.
My_Own_Minion: get rid of the scientist, i can take the blind guy

Talkative: You're like the Wizard of Oz, but evil.

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Max
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Post by Max »

Golbeeze wrote:Max2008, what difficulty did you play it on? Did you play alone? What map was it? You could always try an easier difficulty and with other players.
here's a save game from turn 5 (i've played all sides):
SXCastleOfCantar-Auto-Save5.gz
(130.63 KiB) Downloaded 155 times
i can barely move, because there are lots of hidden elder wooses in the forest and within a couple of turns there's lots of orcs and other nasty things...
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Golbeeze
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Post by Golbeeze »

I was unable to view the replay, but yes, Mabuse's maps are harder than the original maps by Clonkinator. I don't know when other maps will be released, but there are many many maps for SX. I highly recommend playing Mabuse's maps with other players, because they are generally difficult and its always more fun with more people.
My_Own_Minion: get rid of the scientist, i can take the blind guy

Talkative: You're like the Wizard of Oz, but evil.

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Mabuse
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Post by Mabuse »

hey golbeeze, i leave it to player 1 when he activates the NOLUCK SYSTEM
(th eonly downfall is .. what happens if player 1 dies ... not yet solved yet - i'd prefer it if the host can activate it regardless of the player number)

but maybe this is a mistake since many people will simply click and dont know what they do ..... :P

anyway, i just made a security check before they can activate it
i recommend it not to activate it before round 100 or when you need seriously long to calculate combat.

ai turns will still take very long since the ai stil calculate many possible variants, also there does no proof exist that the system will speed up the calculation, i just assume it.

i gladly take your offer to write a tutorial - so if you have some spare time, then go for it.

-------------------------------------

@Max:
yes something like a tutorial is really needed - i mean ... even wesnoth has a tutorial, and some hints how to set up your team and general strategies are urgent required -

the levels have a solid amount of difficulty, and tend to get more difficult - cantar is most easiest, followed by evil dead and forbiddenmountains - the hardest should be wizardII

as a rule of the thump you can say that EXPERT difficulty is only playable without loosing any player, onlower difficulties the loss of a (or two) player might be acceptable.

4-5 players on each map should always be taken.


terrain training is imortant - to maintain overall mobility, forest walk, hill walk and cave is recommended - take these

nullify weaknesses in armor early, for cav that mean give it two pierce armor right away,
a bat maybe better off with 2 impact armor - more than 2 armors shoudl be not invested though

weapons: getting some different damages types is always a good thing. there are basically two classes of heroes in SX: ranged and melee. you cant go ranged+melee.
still a melee weapon for ranged units is always a good idea, it will fence off early zerkers (since the melee weapons in shop do solid base damage), adn provide a small amount of retaliation damage if attack by melee units. so they can be easier taken out afterwards.
the point is: dont upgrade them as a ranged unit

a good setup for a ranged unit is:
a cheap melee sidearm, like mace or torch, but also hvy staff (it slows) is popular
my fav is torch since its versatile damage type
then you need to fit yourself. what you get exactly depends on what you already have and what the level needs.

a mage with a fireball (fire), could for example buy icespell (cold) OR energywave (arcane) -
a NET (impact, slows) is a must for every ranged unit - maybe get also a bow as another damagetype that can be equipped with a special. in general this doesnt make THAT much sense though. so mage with his default fireball + energywave, net and torch would be ok.

after that we come to enhancements - you want to get about 6 to 8 move (total), where 8 is always better than 6 of course, 2x 50 HP and put the rest into our main weapon ranges damage and strikes. for a ranged unit this would be ranged damage and ranged strikes

for melee units the same rule applies. instead of a sidemelee weapon, melee units should get a net sooner or later. there are soem setup (like a zerker setup) where you may renounce initially on a net, but in general its a very handy tool. if you end up heaily wounded somewhere and cant attck and the oponent would most likely kill you next round - then you could for example try to slow it, reducing his attack next round.
also net wil of coourse help greatly reducing the damage from ranged units


so this is the heroes.
with well build heroes, you have the BASIC equipment for beating a level - but of course the level is still not beaten.
collecting treasure chests (often found in caves, so often dwarfes are used as loot units) with 1-2 heroes while the other 3 fight at front is kinda a must in every map.

expierienced difficulty may be even harder than expert ;) - if the team dont go looting.
as a rule of thumb you can say a team that doesnt loot may have a chance on noob difficulty, but on beginner it gets alreay hard probably.

in any way the additional gold will make life so much easier.


regardless of that: the first times on a level you will most likely go down horribly, until you figured some basics out. it helps gratly to play with people who know the level a bit already.

on really hard maps like wizardII you may simply run into a brick wall if your heroes are not 100% prepared and optimized - for that map - on other maps you may get away with a less perfect team even on expert

one last word about relaod:
while its dumb to reload until you get your 25% kill (this is "bad" realoading), it can save so much time.
on turn 30, when you lose a hero due to a tactical mistake - then for me reaoding is no problem. relaod and try to solve your problem with a different approach -
im sure you would be able to play to turn 30 again from start.

as said as long oyu have the feeling you can win do it. sometimes you may have to realize that your current team simply cant continue, then restart is the only option



general play: utilze all boni and advantages you can get. you wont get away with stepping in the open and let all enemies attack you. (unless you take a potion and act as a tank who lures them maybe ;)) take good terrain, look what enemies can reach you and stuff. build zoc lines to protect wonded units - you will need to play smart

i died countless times on my own maps, especially when i first played them - and there i already knew what behind the next corner. i can imagine that it is really difficult for players who dont know that maps at all. not to mention if they are new.

as golbeeze pointed out, there are many SX maps. atm i dont really know why they are not yet on the 1.6 server though, so you have to play my harder maps unfortuanately.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
Mabuse
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Post by Mabuse »

btw one last word about the noluck system:

the terrainmultiplier for the second unit (defnder) is ALWAYS wrongly displayed, as it is always the same number as of the 1st unit (attacker)

i dont know why that is though.

if you calculate the values though you will see that the right numbers were taken for the final damages
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
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Golbeeze
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Post by Golbeeze »

Have you tested the unluck system online to make sure it works for the other players? I don't think its a big deal if only the first player can activate it. It is probably better that way, so only the host (who is hopefully well informed) can make the final decision. I also hope that it really does speed up the calculations, because it definitely hits unplayable at a certain point. Also, Wizard2 is going to be harder than ForbiddenMountains?!?!? HOW!??! Isn't it a good deal smaller? Will the bosses just be crazyness? :shock:


P.S. just a little tip for your English Mabuse, "boni" is an awesome word...I know the plural is technically accurate, but I've never seen it before. Outside of "Octopi" and "Cacti" I think most people just add "es"....like "bonuses." Sometimes I say stuff like "boni" also, but it will make people pause because it is SO irregular. :eng:
My_Own_Minion: get rid of the scientist, i can take the blind guy

Talkative: You're like the Wizard of Oz, but evil.

Add-ons in 1.8: Golbeeze's Maps, Golbeeze's RPGs, Evolving Era
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MCP
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Post by MCP »

American English dictionaries will write the plural of bonus to be bonuses.

Boni sounds like multiple boners ;p.

Please get rid of 'both' damage and strikes. There has always been no point and it results in bad builds. 'But what about when I want to buy an extra strike for my melee staff?' Then buy it like regular people. The price of ranged strikes/damage is rising as you upgrade, but the melee cost stays the same.

Castle Cantar Tips:
I am about to be very specific for one class only.
A good unit is cavalry or horsemen. But then forest terrain training, a torch, put +40% to +50% into impact resists, +1 movement(to nine), and you will want to try to get 20-5 or 20-6 which will 3 hit kill woses at day, +100 HP, and I think that will do.

20+20*.5(wose negative fire resists)+20*.25(day time bonus)=35 damage per hit. Do not be afraid to use your calculator.

For a horseman it's easy, you will automatically get arcane blade at lvl 3, but the cavalry lacks this and torch isn't good enough because you will fail against the drakes. I will leave it up to you to explore some on your own.

Now, in order to NOT DIE, you need to stay relatively close to shop. Woses hide in the forest, and with the horseman build above, you can tear through them immediately, leaving the oncoming orcs to your allies as you retreat back to shop to upgrade.
DO NOT OVER EXTEND.
You need to be able to get back to shop. Remember, if it's not 99+% chance to kill, there is a greater than 1% chance you will get unlucky and not kill the unit you intended. Do not put yourself into a position you can die in if you get unlucky. This mostly comes with experience, but paying attention to that now you will either learn through death by bad decision or by being over conservative and dieing later to mobile bosses.
Mabuse
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Post by Mabuse »

Remember, if it's not 99+% chance to kill, there is a greater than 1% chance you will get unlucky and not kill the unit you intended. Do not put yourself into a position you can die in if you get unlucky.
very true.
also more experienced players often complain about not getting a 90% kill when being stuck somewhere (but they dont see the 9 times before when it worked ;) - me included)
- on the other hand, at some point you must take a risk and go for the kill ;)

still you can plan ahead and dont end up in a bad position when you dont succeed, there are also "save positions" where you can take a shot. also if mates are near you they may be able to help you.

however, due to the luck everybody may find himself sooner or later in a critical situation, after all, that is a fun part of the game (for that reason i recommend NOT to use NOLUCK unless it is not really needed much later in game)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
MCP
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Post by MCP »

Well you can be in 1p/2p and then you should be able to rely on 3/4/5p to bail you out.
The problem lies in GOING ALONE. If you are out of range of your allies you need to stop and go back.
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