SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

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Riklaunim
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Post by Riklaunim »

I've updated SX Braveheart from SX 1.* (1.21) to be more fun and interesting :)
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SurvivalXtremeBraveheart.cfg
SX BH2
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Darth Jordius
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Post by Darth Jordius »

Ooh thanks, but could you update it for 1.3.16? Only problem is Clonk has dropped off the face of the earth. I hope he's still alive. Won't even respond to email.
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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn »

Darth Jordius wrote:Ooh thanks, but could you update it for 1.3.16? Only problem is Clonk has dropped off the face of the earth. I hope he's still alive. Won't even respond to email.
12 days is nothing...I'm sure clonk is just busy with real world stuff
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well

Darth Jordius
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Post by Darth Jordius »

Wow, I guess it only has been that long.
Quiz wrote:You are a Dwarvish Fighter. You're surly and handy with an axe. Go chop some trees.
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Riklaunim
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Post by Riklaunim »

I'm still on wesnoth 1.2.8 :) When I'll have some time I'll try with the new wesnoth/SX

SX POOR - 25 gold, but you get your own bosses that make gold in first turns :)
Attachments
SurvivalXtremePoor.cfg
SX POOR
(10.14 KiB) Downloaded 177 times

hagabaka
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Post by hagabaka »

Version 2.02a is failing to load on 1.3.16 for a few Linux users including me. It works for me after the DOS newlines (\r\n) in the files are converted to Unix newlines (\n). I'm not sure whether this is a known issue in Wesnoth. I'm attaching the version that works on Linux. Maybe Windows users can try it too and if it works for them, could the maintainers use the Unix new lines (most other campaigns seem to do so)?
Attachments
SurvivalXtreme-2.02a-newlinefix.zip
Survival Extreme 2.02a for Wesnoth 1.3.16, with Unix newlines
(69.45 KiB) Downloaded 155 times
Last edited by hagabaka on February 18th, 2008, 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Darth Jordius
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Post by Darth Jordius »

hagabaka wrote:Version 2.02a is failing to load for a few Linux users including me. It works for me after the DOS newlines (\r\n) in the files are converted to Unix newlines (\n). I'm not sure whether this is a known issue in Wesnoth. I'm attaching the version that works on Linux. Maybe Windows users can try it too and if it works for them, could the maintainers use the Unix new lines (most other campaigns seem to do so).
Yeah thanks, SX isn't working on 1.3.16 for me on Windows XP. I reinstalled Windows awhile ago so Linux got wiped off my computer, but I can always reinstall it and use your patch.
Quiz wrote:You are a Dwarvish Fighter. You're surly and handy with an axe. Go chop some trees.
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Riklaunim
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version 2.02

Post by Riklaunim »

Someone is using my nickname and plays SX games :annoyed:

Lim-Dul
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version 2.02

Post by Lim-Dul »

OK - it's time for me to return from the "away from Wesnoth although following its development" limbo. My first post in years, yay! :-D

To the point: I have never been much of an online multiplayer person in Wesnoth - I played skirmishes with the computer and hot-seat with my friends, however, I rediscovered the fun several days ago and got addicted to SurvivalXtreme (usually on Stronghold). I've been playing this "era" non-stop so I have a fair amount of gameplay data to base my critique on.

First of all: Thunderers are overpowered in this mode. They are desinged to be one-hit wonders and in SurvivalXTreme they get too powerful too quickly because of the ability to increase the number of strikes - in addition to that, like all dwarves they have all the res they might need. The Wraith line has been removed, maybe the Thunderer line should be removed as well? Just a random suggestion.

OK - now the real meat of the post:

This mode has almost ceased to be fun for me. Why?

The difficulty settings control the strength of the monsters and the amount of gold the players get. However, all the modes have a certain "break point" where the characters become too powerful compared to the creeps. Changing the starting amount of gold only solves problems concerning the initial phases of the game but the "break points" appear much later. Because of this linear difficulty curve that doesn't keep up with the players' advancement Mad Mode has been made virtually IMPOSSIBLE to beat under normal circumstances - no, really, try Stronghold with ANY experienced players (and I and the guys I play with have DOZENS of playthroughs on this map) and try to stay alive after the mobile bosses have spawned. The only time we managed to survive this phase was when we were playing with lowered XP requirements and a positive income but that way we overruled the map settings which spawned some weird bosses for us. =)

The problem with the difficulty modes is also that both parameters - gold-per-kill and enemy-strength - are changed simultaneously... In easier modes you have weaker monsters AND you get more gold, whereas in the more difficult ones you are at a disadvantage in both fields, which makes the first of the game too difficult but doesn't prevent you from reaching the aforementioned "break point" if you alter the settings.

I really have no specific idea how to fix this - it would require very careful "tuning" of several parameters but seeing that there already IS a "make enemies stronger as the game progresses" function built into SurvivalXtreme I imagine that it'd be just a matter of making the enemy units stronger to match the players' advancement WITHOUT making them too strong initially. Or the bosses should get more income - once the "break point" is reached the players can actually camp the spawning sites of the creeps to get more gold, periodically returning to the shops... This isn't normal gameplay, this becomes one boring grind. Maybe it'd be possible to adjust the enemy stats according to the player strength? I don't know much about what is possible in Wesnoth scenarios and what isn't. =)
War does not determine who is right - only who is left. - Bertrand Russell
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hagabaka
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version 2.02

Post by hagabaka »

I'm trying to think of better ways for balancing units for SX than removing "overpowered" units. I'm not sure how feasible it is to implement them, but here are the ideas:
  • Make the cost of upgrading rise exponentially. For example,

    Code: Select all

    cost to add one damage = 5 * current damage
    cost to add one strike = 20 * current strikes
    cost to add 10% resistance = 30 * (current resistance + 100%)
    cost to add 10% defense = 100 * (current defense + 100%)
    
    This should make it extremely difficult to raise a particular stat above a certain extent, and units with natural advantages, such as thunderer with its high damage, ghost with its high resistance and defense, cannot raise them as fast as others.
    Many units have more than one melee or ranged weapons with different stats. I think the ideal way to deal with that is to only upgrade one weapon with one payment.
  • Posessing a weapon special should increase cost. I'm not sure how to quantify this, because some weapon specials are a lot more helpful than others. For example, drain and slow help much more than poison. Also I'm not sure when the cost should be incurred. Each time the unit upgrades damage/strikes might be too harsh and not KISS. Maybe at the start of game, and after each upgrade, a unit with drain attack is docked 100 gold, magical 90 gold, slow 80 gold, etc. I've ignored the issue that the weapon special's usefulness is related to the weapon damage and strikes, and that could result in unfair situations.
  • Create situations for abilities to be useful. The teleport, concealment abilities are useless in SX, and leadership useless most of the time. In contrast, terror and ambush are useful (maybe they're not really needed with everyone being super units, but at least there are plenty of situations to use them). Maybe there could be a way to purchase villages or troops, making these abilities more useful.
My favorite addon campaigns (made by others): Swamplings | Galuldur's First Journey | To Lands Unknown | The Devil's Flute

Riklaunim
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version 2.02

Post by Riklaunim »

I've remade Braveheart for the new Wesnoth version. And it's more evil!
Attachments
SurvivalXtremeBraveheart.cfg
SX Braveheart wesnoth 1.4
(19.89 KiB) Downloaded 143 times

Darth Jordius
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version 2.02

Post by Darth Jordius »

Thanks a lot Rik! By the way, would you consider kind of unofficially taking over SX? Clonk hasn't posted anything for a long time, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind. If you look through the ToDo list in C:\Program Files\Wesnoth 1.4\userdata\data\campaigns\SurvivalXtreme (assuming you're using PC) you'll find a number of my suggestions Clonkinator was going to implement, but he dropped off the face of the earth first. I'm nothing of a coder, but I'm sure you know how or could get some support.
Quiz wrote:You are a Dwarvish Fighter. You're surly and handy with an axe. Go chop some trees.
Check out Quietus's Minotaurs!

Riklaunim
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Location: Poland
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version 2.02

Post by Riklaunim »

Well I'm not realy a WML expert ;) I can do something with the SX maps but hacking SX macros etc would be to much for me :)

Riklaunim
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version 2.02

Post by Riklaunim »

SX Curve - changed undead and orc leaders so 100% blade and berserk won't work on all leaders ;) Changed leaders damage and strikes.
SX Rumble - income changes
SX Small - remade of old SX map :)
Attachments
SurvivalXtremeSmall.cfg
SX Small
(20.35 KiB) Downloaded 163 times
SurvivalXtremeRumble.cfg
SX Rumble
(16.75 KiB) Downloaded 165 times
SurvivalXtremeCurve.cfg
SX Curve
(17.56 KiB) Downloaded 177 times

Riklaunim
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Re: SurvivalXtreme: Version 2.02

Post by Riklaunim »

SX Stronghold - income changes
SX Braveheart - fixes
Attachments
SurvivalXtremeBraveheart.cfg
SX Braveheart
(20.27 KiB) Downloaded 144 times
SurvivalXtremeStronghold.cfg
SX Stronghold
(20.27 KiB) Downloaded 150 times

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