Unit Change Ideas

[Cackfiend]

I understand there is a very good chance that none of this will happen and i'll probably get flamed, but here are just some simple ideas to discuss:



Drakes:

Gliders 40% defense on all terrain, 4-3 ranged, cost raised to 18 from 16
so that drakes have a unit that can hold water villages, and so that its ranged attack can take advantage of -20 fire resist creatures (3-3 at daytime isnt affected by -20% fire resist)

Saurians 2 MP through shallow water instead of 3
saurians move through swamp with 1 MP, have the same 40% defense of grassland in shallow water... just makes sense they should be able to move through shallow water better than every ground unit in the game.

Northerners:

Naga 20% Fire Resistance
naga's get owned by cold units (adepts and saurian augurs namely) so imo a counter to it should be some fire resistance

Orc Grunt cost raised to 13 from 12
well many will disagree but ive seen some abuse with mass grunts lately that has really worked well

Loyalist:

Merman -20% Fire Resistance
balances out their 20% cold resistance. makes drake vs loyalist a little more balanced (the most unbalanced matchup in the game IMO)

Spearman cost raised to 15 from 14
makes drake vs loyalist a little more balanced (the most unbalanced matchup in the game IMO) without hurting other matchups

Heavy Infantry 2 MP through hills instead of 3
not sure why heavy infantry can move through forest with 2 MP but takes them 3 MP to go through hills... just doesnt make sense and should be changed imo

Rebels:

Merman -20% Fire Resistance
balances out their 20% cold resistance.

Knalgan Alliance

Poacher ranged 6-3 or 5-4 from 4-4
makes poachers at night be able to take advantage of drakes -10% piercing resistance. currently a 4-4 poacher is unaffected by drakes piercing

Poacher 2 MP for shallow water

doesn't make much sense to me that footpads and thieves can go through shallow water with only 2 MP but poachers cant.

Undead

Vampire Bat lower cost from 13 to 11 or 12

anyone else think its dumb that a vampire bat is more expensive than an orc grunt? i know the vampire bat use to be cheaper and was raised in price because of abuse, but i think 13 gp is a little much


When I think of more i'll update the list. Feel free to discuss these ideas, as to why they would be good and why they would be bad.

[Maeglin Dubh]

To start things off, why not explain why you proposed them at all?

[Cackfiend]

sure, i have bolded my ideas for changes and made a small description of why

[Becephalus]

Not surprising since you are a drake fanatic, but I think both your suggestions are good (although variations fo the first one ahve been around for ages and it never happens, so there are reasons).

The naga merman resistance thing has also been debated many times. I doubt anythign will change. I don't think it would actually matter much to gameplay anyway.

Grunts do rule, but he northerners need some nice things to make up for all thier drawbacks.

The poacher change woudl be nice for a poacher lover like me, but I doubt it would matter much either, theys till do a decent job, and knalgans have no particular trouble with drakes that I am aware of.

Because their armor is freaking heavy and hills involve vertical movement . But I see nothign wrong balance wise with changing it to 2. They are already a bit underused IMO.

I think the spearman change would effect a lot fo matchups, but I am not sure it would be a hgue deal. The thing about drakevsloyalist is that it is not unbalanced per se. It is just highly variable depending on map etc. Lots has been written on this.

[Baufo]

Wait a minute, mermen have fire resistance?

[Jetrel]

Not surprising since you are a drake fanatic, but I think both your suggestions are good (although variations fo the first one ahve been around for ages and it never happens, so there are reasons).

I'd second the comment on those first two drake changes.

[Cackfiend]

Wait a minute, mermen have fire resistance?

oops my bad, i meant they have 20% cold resist so they should get -20 fire lol

i was very tired when i wrote this, i'll change it

[Cackfiend]

I'd second the comment on those first two drake changes.

you mean you agree that saurians should move 2mp through shallow water and gliders should be changed to 40% defense everywhere and 4-3 ranged attack? also the cost increase

honestly ANY upgrade to the glider would make me happy
doubt both would ever happen but if one or the other did id be all like *happy dance*

[Cackfiend]

Not surprising since you are a drake fanatic, but I think both your suggestions are good (although variations fo the first one ahve been around for ages and it never happens, so there are reasons).

yup yup, this is definitely coming from a drake players point of view.

The naga merman resistance thing has also been debated many times. I doubt anythign will change. I don't think it would actually matter much to gameplay anyway.

yea i was guessing i wasnt exactly thinking of any ground breaking original ideas

Grunts do rule, but he northerners need some nice things to make up for all thier drawbacks.

true, but like ive said ive seen some grunt spam that has worked nicely lately

The poacher change woudl be nice for a poacher lover like me, but I doubt it would matter much either, theys till do a decent job, and knalgans have no particular trouble with drakes that I am aware of.

but no smart knalgan uses poachers vs drakes, imo
i also think its easily the weakest ranged unit, and one of the weakest upgrades at lv 2 (not to mention if you get one as a leader... eeewww)

Because their armor is freaking heavy and hills involve vertical movement . But I see nothign wrong balance wise with changing it to 2. They are already a bit underused IMO.

yes, this

I think the spearman change would effect a lot fo matchups, but I am not sure it would be a hgue deal. The thing about drakevsloyalist is that it is not unbalanced per se. It is just highly variable depending on map etc. Lots has been written on this.

but loyalist vs drakes is the only matchup a loyalist will spam spearman, so i dont think a 1 gp cost increase would really hurt other matchups.

im pretty sure if you play a good loyalist player that spams mostly spearman you will lose the majority of the time. i would love to be proven wrong on this though.

[Clonkinator]

Wait a minute, mermen have fire resistance?

I thought they had 20% holy resistance (no more since arcane)...

[Noyga]

Drakes:

Gliders 40% defense on all terrain, 4-3 ranged, cost raised to 18 from 16
so that drakes have a unit that can hold water villages, and so that its ranged attack can take advantage of -20 fire resist creatures (3-3 at daytime isnt affected by -20% fire resist)

I would be in favor of a 50% defense everywhere (with some HP/resistance rebalancement if necessary), just like the other drakes of this line, for flavour only...
I don't like the other changes, this drake is only meant to be a scout...

Saurians 2 MP through shallow water instead of 3
saurians move through swamp with 1 MP, have the same 40% defense of grassland in shallow water... just makes sense they should be able to move through shallow water better than every ground unit in the game.

I disagree. To me, they aren't swamp swimmers...

Northerners:

Naga 20% Fire Resistance
naga's get owned by cold units (adepts and saurian augurs namely) so imo a counter to it should be some fire resistance

This doesn't make sense ...

Orc Grunt cost raised to 13 from 12
well many will disagree but ive seen some abuse with mass grunts lately that has really worked well

I think this change might raise a balance issue versus Drakes.

Loyalist:

Merman -20% Fire Resistance
balances out their 20% cold resistance. makes drake vs loyalist a little more balanced (the most unbalanced matchup in the game IMO)

I disagree. This isn't necessary and doesn't have any justification.
I follow the same logic you should probably add a weakness to the dark adepts to balance is +20% arcane resistance (and 0% other weaknesses).

Spearman cost raised to 15 from 14
makes drake vs loyalist a little more balanced (the most unbalanced matchup in the game IMO) without hurting other matchups

I think this one might be ok and makes senses since the spearman looks quite strong for its cost... Btw well it need testing, especially if you compare similar fighter units of the same cost like the Elvish Fighter.

Heavy Infantry 2 MP through hills instead of 3
not sure why heavy infantry can move through forest with 2 MP but takes them 3 MP to go through hills... just doesnt make sense and should be changed imo

IMHO it makes sense since it's difficult to climb with a heavy armor.

Rebels:

Merman -20% Fire Resistance
balances out their 20% cold resistance.

Same as above...

Knalgan Alliance

Poacher ranged 6-3 or 5-4 from 4-4
makes poachers at night be able to take advantage of drakes -10% piercing resistance. currently a 4-4 poacher is unaffected by drakes piercing

I feel it would make the Poacher too strong compared to the Thunderer...

IHMO things aren't bad how they are.

[Cackfiend]

Naga 20% Fire Resistance
naga's get owned by cold units (adepts and saurian augurs namely) so imo a counter to it should be some fire resistance

This doesn't make sense ...

nagas currently have -20% cold resistance, so units like dark adepts and augurs (mages that hit at 70%) hit very hard and very often

but nagas are also weak against units like burners, so i figured if you're vulnerable to cold why not be invulnerable to fire?

Loyalist:

Merman -20% Fire Resistance
balances out their 20% cold resistance. makes drake vs loyalist a little more balanced (the most unbalanced matchup in the game IMO)

I disagree. This isn't necessary and doesn't have any justification.
I follow the same logic you should probably add a weakness to the dark adepts to balance is +20% arcane resistance (and 0% other weaknesses).

the justification is that 20% cold resist really screws over an augur counter to this unit. the augur hits with 70% but its damaged is reduced quite a bit because of the mermans cold resist. now if it was vulnerable to fire, a better counter to mermen would be burners instead of augurs in drake vs loyalist matchups. it is necessary because the drake vs loyalist matchup is unbalanced atm and i think this would be a step to making it more balanced.

the same logic doesnt apply to dark adepts at all... there is no opposite to holy/arcane. cold is the opposite of fire though.

Heavy Infantry 2 MP through hills instead of 3
not sure why heavy infantry can move through forest with 2 MP but takes them 3 MP to go through hills... just doesnt make sense and should be changed imo

IMHO it makes sense since it's difficult to climb with a heavy armor.

yes but a heavy infantry has a movement of 4, 5 if quick... and they have to use 3 to move across hills?
just about the entire game has a balance with slow units... they can move through tiles quicker than the fast units. dwarves for example can move through hills, FOREST and even mountains with just 1 mp... so it makes up drastically for their 4 or 5 movement.

anyway it was just an idea, because last game i saw a few HI that couldnt get to the opponent at all because they were using the hills to seperate them.

Knalgan Alliance

Poacher ranged 6-3 or 5-4 from 4-4
makes poachers at night be able to take advantage of drakes -10% piercing resistance. currently a 4-4 poacher is unaffected by drakes piercing

I feel it would make the Poacher too strong compared to the Thunderer...

the poacher still has less hps, no 20% defense to all physical, and still has a horrible melee attack. not to mention its best tile (60% defense on forest) takes 2 mp to move into

again just an idea because i see poachers very much underused and think they need to be changed a little...

[Wen Yang]

Knalgan Alliance

Poacher ranged 6-3 or 5-4 from 4-4
makes poachers at night be able to take advantage of drakes -10% piercing resistance. currently a 4-4 poacher is unaffected by drakes piercing

I feel it would make the Poacher too strong compared to the Thunderer...

the poacher still has less hps, no 20% defense to all physical, and still has a horrible melee attack. not to mention its best tile (60% defense on forest) takes 2 mp to move into

again just an idea because i see poachers very much underused and think they need to be changed a little...

Poachers are also 3 Gold cheaper than the thunderer, and their offense improves to a pretty decent 5-4 at night, equal to that of an elven archer. If they were to get improved damage, then why bother getting thunderers at all, when the cheaper poacher does more damage than it?

[Cackfiend]

6-3 wouldnt be more damage then thunderers 18-1

[toni]

6-3 would be more damage then thunderers 18-1

if this would be applied, i would stop playling wesnoth