Heroes' Arena v0.20

[TL]

Just downloaded 1.3.7. Halbardier/halberdier needs fixing too. I'm going to bed now but I'll convert everything in a new version tomorrow morning.

To adjust the XP bar in 1.3.7 turn "Use map settings" off. The intention is to try to balance for 100% as the default so that people have plenty of room to adjust it up or down if they want to. People have suggested I re-calibrate things for 30% or 40% XP but if I made that the "default" then there would be no room for people to turn down the difficulty.

Obviously multiplayer balance still needs some work. Solo games are tough but doable at 100% though, so it's better than it used to be.

As for the runes, HP management is a gigantic part of the game. Damage, even in small amounts, matters. 4 damage is frequently enough to let you kill an enemy in 1 less hit (especially for the dwarves themselves, which don't tend to get the huge attacks that humans or orcs can rack up), which saves HP from retaliation and can potentially save you attacks as well, letting you clear enemies faster. More importantly, though, I decided to have the runes work they way they do simply because dwarves already have enough reasons to prepare a defensive position and just hunker down all game. The fact that fire runes work best when you move around a bit to spread them around provides the player with a strategic decision: do I build up a defense and just wait for all the enemies to come to me, or do I try to clear them to create room to plant more fire runes?

Your idea isn't bad though, it might be interesting for another set of abilities once I move onto other races' heroes.

Enslavement is frequently underrated but I agree it could use some fleshing out (a lot of ability trees still need fleshing out). High-level enslavement is simply not going to happen, however, although I might add limited level 1 enslavement just for sake of variety. But in the course of a single solo game at 100% XP I've managed to accumulate, at the same time, a royal guard, a halberdier, a master bowman, and 3 bandits, plus a goblin impaler or two. Admittedly this little army was decimated in the process of taking out the last waves and the boss (fortunately it was just the mage boss that spawned, as the melee bosses would have ripped them to shreds). They did get the job done though, so I have to wonder what the point would be in allowing level 2+ units to be enslaved.

Alllllthoooough... I don't think it would hurt to allow you to upgrade the ability to enslave higher level units into level 0 units (i.e. net a level 2 bandit, get a level 0 ruffian). It's slightly silly but I think the scenario is already rapidly progressing past "slightly silly".

[Qes]

Just downloaded 1.3.7. Halbardier/halberdier needs fixing too. I'm going to bed now but I'll convert everything in a new version tomorrow morning.

To adjust the XP bar in 1.3.7 turn "Use map settings" off. The intention is to try to balance for 100% as the default so that people have plenty of room to adjust it up or down if they want to. People have suggested I re-calibrate things for 30% or 40% XP but if I made that the "default" then there would be no room for people to turn down the difficulty.

Obviously multiplayer balance still needs some work. Solo games are tough but doable at 100% though, so it's better than it used to be.

As for the runes, HP management is a gigantic part of the game. Damage, even in small amounts, matters. 4 damage is frequently enough to let you kill an enemy in 1 less hit (especially for the dwarves themselves, which don't tend to get the huge attacks that humans or orcs can rack up), which saves HP from retaliation and can potentially save you attacks as well, letting you clear enemies faster. More importantly, though, I decided to have the runes work they way they do simply because dwarves already have enough reasons to prepare a defensive position and just hunker down all game. The fact that fire runes work best when you move around a bit to spread them around provides the player with a strategic decision: do I build up a defense and just wait for all the enemies to come to me, or do I try to clear them to create room to plant more fire runes?

Your idea isn't bad though, it might be interesting for another set of abilities once I move onto other races' heroes.

Enslavement is frequently underrated but I agree it could use some fleshing out (a lot of ability trees still need fleshing out). High-level enslavement is simply not going to happen, however, although I might add limited level 1 enslavement just for sake of variety. But in the course of a single solo game at 100% XP I've managed to accumulate, at the same time, a royal guard, a halberdier, a master bowman, and 3 bandits, plus a goblin impaler or two. Admittedly this little army was decimated in the process of taking out the last waves and the boss (fortunately it was just the mage boss that spawned, as the melee bosses would have ripped them to shreds). They did get the job done though, so I have to wonder what the point would be in allowing level 2+ units to be enslaved.

Alllllthoooough... I don't think it would hurt to allow you to upgrade the ability to enslave higher level units into level 0 units (i.e. net a level 2 bandit, get a level 0 ruffian). It's slightly silly but I think the scenario is already rapidly progressing past "slightly silly".

Wow, thank you for the wonderfully thorough post.

I do see your intention with the runes - however, as a dwarf, it almost never pays to leave mountains and go treking - regardless of the potential fire runes could do if literally scattered everywhere (if they die by rune, does the dwarf get the experience? - if not many are loathe to use them).

I simply love runes, but I would like to use runes INSTEAD of melee and ranged attacks. I would (in my heart of hearts) like to have a character that specialized in them at the expense of other things, thus creating choice. I know your idea is "one less hit" but ideally I'd like to build a dwarf who needed 0 hits.

Naturally there should be consequences - like being weak in melee or unable to kill things that attack (as you've not upped your damage or anything).


If you are set in it the way it is - I commend you for your tenacity and vision - but then let me offer more rune ideas to add to the dwarvian repetoire.


Each time you select an abililty that gives you runes - you get two types instead of one.


Elemental Runes

- Gives you a Fire rune, and an Earth (impact) rune (sorta cool no?). These do 6 damage (standard melee hit at beginning, 4 is just too small in comparison to other characters and other abilities - the humble mud crawler can do more, and to more things - as multiple things attack it)

Health Runes

Healing and Armor runes. Heals 6 Damage (to stay on par with damage runes) or provides +10% to all resistances (which applies to enemies as well)

Movement Runes

Clay Rune - Casts slow on all adjacent targets (not rune-caster).
Teleporting rune. - If you stand on this rune, you will be teleported to the OTHER teleporting rune. - this would require two runes. If you stop your movement on one, you move to the other. Only two runes of this kind may be out at a time. OR have it so if your standing on it, you've a right click menu option "teleport" and you must select the other rune (wherever it is regardless of distance) and teleport to it. This would allow multiple runes.

Mind runes:

Wisdom Rune - 1 xp cumulative for each turn you're next to it. 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. By the fourth turn you've earned 10 experience instead of 4 off of it. (1 xp means 60 throughout the whole game assuming you were standing next to one the first level, in many instances this is unsatisfactory when compared to other potential runes that could have been placed. Healing for example)

Confusion Rune - Adjacent targets take 1 arcane damage, with 50% chance to develop confusion. Confusion - all units become enemies for one turn, even former allies.


Just to spice up a rune-caster's life a bit.


Some other possible runic abilities:


Runic Weapon - Melee weapon becomes magical.

Runic Helmet - Gain Mountainstalk (invisible in mountains - ambush)

Runic Horn - Teleport Target Ally to adjacent square next to you.

(Enchant weapon is bugged i think, it wears off before an ally can use it)

Fast Inscribing - Can move after placing a rune.





Just some ideas,

-Qes


EDIT:
*Ideas for Additional Classes*

Drake Hunter: Uses claws, wings and flight to claim prey and destory enemies.
6-4 Melee Claw, Blade
6-3 Ranged Fire Breath, Fire

Unique Abilities:

Dive bomb - Gain Dive Bomb attack a 30-1 attack but loses second attack for the turn. (Charge - minus the damage consequences, plus mobility consequences)

(Requires Dive Bomb) Winged Predator - After defeating a level 0 gain HP equal to defeated units Max HP. (Way to heal self but remain mobile)

(Requires Dive Bomb) Sky Savage - +50% melee damage against other flying units. (Air superiority)

(Requires Winged Predator) Skystalker - Teleport (invisable flight)

Furious Wrath- +25% ranged on defense

Firelord- Ranged Damage unaffected by the time of day.

(Requires Firelord) Firestream - Full damage affects any unit behind target unit. (As if the unit were in a backstab position)

(Requires Firelord) Bathed in Flame- Gain 100% Fire resistance.

(Requries Firelord, Firestream) Incineration - Target loses 30% resistance to fire.

(Requires Firelord) Smokescreen- Summon level 1 smoke. (Smoke is a unit with 100% Resistance to everything, 12HP and lasts 1 round before automatically dying. Essentially it's given an "autodeath" condition that would take effect at the beginning of the Dragon Hunter's turn. The idea being that the computer's AI would attack it, and there'd be nothing there to kill, but it'd eat up computer turns.)

Glassmaker: Summon Level one Glass golem in Sand square. (High peircing damage, low HP golem)

(Requires Glassmaker) Glass Artisan: Glass Golems have an additional attack.

(Requires Glass Artisan) Glass Master: Creating a Glass Golem does not stop the drakes movement.




Saurian Monk
5-5 Melee Foot & Fist (Melee)
6-3 Range Throwing Star

Possible Abilities:

(Disallow Strength, Berzerk)
Hard Style- +1 Melee Attacks (up to 3 times)
OR
Soft Style- take -15% damage on defense (up to 3 times)

(Requires Soft Style) Empty Hand- Add's first strike and slow to melee

(Requires Empty Hand) Subdue- Target's Movement is reduced to 0 on melee hit.

Monk of Spirit - Gain arcane ranged attack 5-3, become Neutral
OR
Monk of Body - Gain extra 5 HP per level.

(Requires Empty hand, Monk of Spirit) Convert- Ranged attack converts target on kill - becomes level 0 version of former self (starts new life).

(Requires Empty Hand, Monk of Body): Divine Body: Immune to poison, gain +50% fire, arcane, cold resistances.

(Requires Hard Style) Pressure points- Gain a 5-5 Peircing melee attack.

(Requires Pressure Points) Touch of pain: Melee attacks gain poison.

(Requires Pressure Points) Touch of Fatigue: Melee attacks gain slow

(Requires Touch of Pain, Monk of Body): Five-Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique- Gain 100-1 Arcane melee attack (unaffected by increased attacks from hard style)

Requires Touch of Fatigue, Monk of Spirit) Holy Words- Ranged Attack gains berzerk, become lawful.


?:)?

[Soliton]

Also - the EXP bar is no longer adjustable with 1.3.7 making it near impossible at 100% experience and all the other standard acutrements.

Turn "Use map settings" off.

[Qes]

Also - the EXP bar is no longer adjustable with 1.3.7 making it near impossible at 100% experience and all the other standard acutrements.

Turn "Use map settings" off.

Right - I know that now. But I had thought turning map settings off would make the scenario not work - scripts, etc.

Now I know.
-Qes

[Gresnor]

I have also noticed the Grunt's ability to gain 4HP "when an enemy is defeated" does not seem to work. Each of the other four hero classes either by design or by accident have a way of regaining hit points. I think enslave is fine the way it is, the human dark magic only ever produces level 0's, enslave should be the same way. The net is great for these guys, I tried adding dexterity, and it ups the net attack as well! Eventually I was doing some decent impact damage + slow with this fun little attack, it's great on defense against a mage blasting you, too.

[TL]

Fire runes do award XP to the player who laid them. Last I checked they were working.

I simply love runes, but I would like to use runes INSTEAD of melee and ranged attacks. I would (in my heart of hearts) like to have a character that specialized in them at the expense of other things, thus creating choice. I know your idea is "one less hit" but ideally I'd like to build a dwarf who needed 0 hits.

More room for specialization and upgrades to runes is all well and good, dwarves still have a narrower upgrade list than anybody else. But having a dwarf who needs 0 hits is tantamount to saying everything dies before even reaching the dwarf without the dwarf needing to do anything, which does not make for a very balanced or interesting scenario.

Health Runes

Healing and Armor runes. Heals 6 Damage (to stay on par with damage runes) or provides +10% to all resistances (which applies to enemies as well)

I'm not really sure healing needs to stay on par with damage runes, as it's just more useful to begin with. There already is a disparity between healing and damage runes since damage runes already do "stack" in a sort of sense since it is possible to spread them out and end up hitting enemies more than once before they get to you--whereas spreading healing runes out won't get you any more health.

Movement Runes

Clay Rune - Casts slow on all adjacent targets (not rune-caster).
Teleporting rune. - If you stand on this rune, you will be teleported to the OTHER teleporting rune. - this would require two runes. If you stop your movement on one, you move to the other. Only two runes of this kind may be out at a time. OR have it so if your standing on it, you've a right click menu option "teleport" and you must select the other rune (wherever it is regardless of distance) and teleport to it. This would allow multiple runes.

The lack of "friend or foe" recognition is part of a feature of runes, to make them different from other effects and to help balance them out. Considering how powerful slow is, if I ever did make a slowing rune there's no way I'd give the rune-caster a free pass on it (although I would make them safe on the turn they laid it, which might be what you meant anyhow).

The teleporting idea is intriguing but a bit complex to handle in WML. I'm also a bit wary of the balance implications since it would give huge amounts of easy XP if you ever managed to get them set up at two different castles.

Mind runes:
Wisdom Rune - 1 xp cumulative for each turn you're next to it. 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. By the fourth turn you've earned 10 experience instead of 4 off of it. (1 xp means 60 throughout the whole game assuming you were standing next to one the first level, in many instances this is unsatisfactory when compared to other potential runes that could have been placed. Healing for example)

The wisdom rune may be somewhat lacking from a solo perspective but has great potential in teams. Particularly teams with orc slavers.

Confusion Rune - Adjacent targets take 1 arcane damage, with 50% chance to develop confusion. Confusion - all units become enemies for one turn, even former allies.

Hmm... I really like the confusion effect and think it should be doable (I can always just add an extra, teamless AI side and move confused units to it for a turn) but it wouldn't have much effect on heroes which again doesn't mesh with the general idea of runes as being "neutral" and affecting all sides equally.

Some other possible runic abilities:

Runic Weapon - Melee weapon becomes magical.

I've been thinking about this one. I suppose it probably wouldn't be too unbalanced; when attacking enemies who have 60% defense it would go from being a 40% chance to hit to a 70% chance to hit, effectively a +75% increase in damage potential, which is a lot but not too incredibly high for an (almost) best-case scenario. (70% defense is more extreme, effectively +133%, but also much more rare).

Runic Helmet - Gain Mountainstalk (invisible in mountains - ambush)

Invisibility tends to be a bit boring vs. the AI. I'll do some more experimenting to see if it's improved since the last time I tried it.

Runic Horn - Teleport Target Ally to adjacent square next to you.

Good call. People have requested an ability like this but I was wondering where to put it. This fits thematically and also works well with the dwarf's usual defense/support role.

(Enchant weapon is bugged i think, it wears off before an ally can use it)

Oops. That's what I get for testing it on my own summoned mudcrawlers.



Thanks for the brainstorm on other classes. The monk idea is a bit too specialized, as the idea for the present is mostly to go with the idea of racial classes (plus I'm not sure how well it fits the image of primitive savage things that live in the swamp) but I'll probably be using some of the drake ideas.

[Weeksy]

The Tremors do nothing, they can't even activate... and you should really add an undead or drake boss, or at the very least a saurian... because as it is, there is one boss that has 0 or negative resist to every damage type but arcane IIRC... although if soloing as a dwarf it's annoying to be faced with the swordsman, as few people put much dex into dwarves.

[TL]

Uploaded 0.23. This fixes enchant weapon and tremor and should make things 1.3.7 compatable. Playing in 1.3.7 on earlier versions can lead to a fatal bug with runes of fire.

[Qes]

I have also noticed the Grunt's ability to gain 4HP "when an enemy is defeated" does not seem to work. Each of the other four hero classes either by design or by accident have a way of regaining hit points. I think enslave is fine the way it is, the human dark magic only ever produces level 0's, enslave should be the same way. The net is great for these guys, I tried adding dexterity, and it ups the net attack as well! Eventually I was doing some decent impact damage + slow with this fun little attack, it's great on defense against a mage blasting you, too.

This is still true - there was some confusion if it had been fixed, but it hasnt, Caeb and I tested it.

Just FYI,
-Qes

[Gresnor]

Yeah, and we ran into many..er..."interesting" sync issues during multiple games. First game Qes and I were playing 1.3.6 with 0.22, the second game we were playing 1.3.7 with 0.23, and it happened in both games. Caeb claims he was using 1.3.6 with 0.22 the first game, and 1.3.7 with 0.23 the second game...so we were all using the same stuff.

We were all getting the OOS errors when someone leveled, as usual, and we just ignored them. Then as the game went further and further along, our screens began to deviate. On my screen, GunSmoke survives an attack, while on everyone else's screen, he died. On Qes' screen there would be a swordsman, and on Caeb's screen it would be a Drake Fighter. And stranger still, Caeb had a walking corpse that neither Qes nor I could see, and he used it to kill another unit, which we ALSO didn't see, to create ANOTHER walking corpse...that we couldn't see! *LOL*! It was so strange, we were in the same game, but at the same time, not. I'm not sure what versions GunSmoke was using, but in the last game, it was just Caeb, Qes, and I, no one else.

I wish I knew how to reproduce it, sounds like it would be difficult to troubleshoot, no? We'll probably play another game or two tonight, if TL or PK want to observe.

[Qes]

Had a friend who got attacked by a necrophage. He was a master of arms who went the dark route, and was undead, having taken lichdom and discorporation.

Nevertheless he became poisoned.



Also - the host of a game who was first player died a final death (with less than 150 gold) the game crashed after his death. This was not on the offcial server, it was over LAN if that makes a difference.

-Qes

[Gresnor]

I think Weeksy is right, I've never had those funky OOS issues when there's not been an orc in the game. If we have an orc slaver, making slaves, then we experience the differences in unit types/positions. Probably due to the traits, was it? Interesting.

I have to say, as an orc, by myself, as long as I don't take berserk, fury, charge, or anything like that, just strength, then the whip + enslave? Whenever a level 0 attacks me, it always chooses the whip in defense, so I end up racking up a LOT of units. Plus, taking leadership and stuff, gives them bonuses. It's really fun.

[Weeksy]

Also, keep in mind that the version of heroes arena players have doesn't matter, as they are downloading the entire scenario from the host.

[Qes]

Hey TL,

Just wanted to let you know that I appreciate all the work you've done - and hope that my suggestions or wishes in no way means you're not doing a superb job. Keep it up man, I wouldnt care so much if it weren't such a blast to play.

Be well,
-Qes

[Qes]

I think this might just be my favorite scenario i look back on and miss in wesnoth.

Is there any hope of it getting love in the development version? 1.5.x?

I do miss it so.

I am aware of the "survivalxtreme" series - but I for one liked the feel that each "Character class" had a very unique and different function from the rest. That each individual could take multiple paths in leveling up. I liked that multiple mechanics were available as a branching system instead of just raw purchases from a 'store'.

I really liked the old Arena - and Hope it finds love again.

-Qes