small, balanced 1vs1 map

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Icyclemort
Posts: 7
Joined: April 29th, 2007, 5:43 pm

small, balanced 1vs1 map

Post by Icyclemort »

working title: "Broken Paradise"

There it is:

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It was originally meant as a study of how small and cramped a map could be made, but yet be well balanced. It proved to be so much fun that I decided to share it.
It is quite asymmetrical in the west/east direction (its still symmetrical overall), which needs to be considered while playing(!).
Lava and chasms provide more mobility for flying units, but that was needed for balancing reasons (otherwise the amount of cave walls/the cramped style would have seriously effected their mobility, which is their greatest asset, after all)
Water units can easily cross into the rivers of the enemy... (just a swamp and one dirt tile to cross)

The map features less roads/dirt/grassland than Den of Onis, and a little bit more of the other terrain types. IMHO, DoO was a little bit to generous with our horse-riding friends.


strategies that worked for me while testing the map:
-either breaking through in the center - direction church and keep(that is the eastern bridge if coming from the north or the western bridge, if attacking from the south)
-advancing in direction swamp village(the small island SE/NW) via river ford (very good with flying units, as they also have access to the church via chasm)
-snatching the desert village (very edge of the map) for a financial advantage or as a distraction, that village is often only weakly defended while the opponents clash in the center of the map
-snatching one (or even both) villages in the enemies cave area (requires either an advance by bridge - the other one than mentioned above, or passing the sandy area)
-(with flying units), crossing the central chasm in force is a nasty surprise, if the enemy neglects to ZoC his side of the chasm (very important if playing against drakes, naturally) > possible steal of the water village


ZoC is very important on this map, so much that you often cannot leave certain tiles even if you are on the wrong end of the day/night cycle.
Take great care in deciding which tiles to ZoC when playing against flying units.

Thank god that there are no flying skirmisher units, otherwise this map would be instantly imbalanced :P



As I am still new to tBoW map making (this being only my 2nd published map), I very much encourage everybody to comment... (mostly on balancing issues). Comparisons (balancing wise), to Den of Onis are especially welcome.
Replays by good/decent players would be a godsend *making puppy eyes*



Have fun playing.

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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

There are a few really bad imbalances here.

1. 21, 13 can be stolen by a player one gryphon every time. Doesn't even need to be a quick gryphon.

2. There's a reason why the vast majority of balanced maps don't ever place mountains adjacent to villages. It's too long to type out here- You should do a search on it, or just think about how such a thing might give a large advantage to the Knalgans (think Ulfs, Fighters, etc, and think of the huge significance of village-related combat. Think about why a forest adjacent to a village is not an equivalent advantage for Elves.). This map definitely doesn't disadvantage Knalgans enough to counterbalance with mountain-adjacent villages.

3. You really overdid the pro-Drake terrain here; it greatly outweighs any disadvantage they might face from the cramping.

4. Take a look at 11,11, and imagine a Drake vs. Loyalist or Drake vs. Northerner match. Your Drakes are losing? No problem! Just fly your leader to 11,11, and force a stalemate. :D


* * * *
Remember, you did say yourself that you were new to map making, so I wouldn't assume right off the bat (as you did) that this is a balanced map. There is a lot to be learned, but I get the impression from your post that you have a lot of energy for the game, and that you'll get there.

Best of luck.

:wink:
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Ultimatum479
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Re: small, balanced 1vs1 map

Post by Ultimatum479 »

Paterson's 1, 3, and 4 points are valid. Point 2, however, is something I've noticed in all maps that confuses me: why is it that villages are never to be placed next to mountainous terrain (in which Knalgans get 40-70 dodging) but often near forests (in which Rebels get 40-70 dodging)?
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eyu100
Posts: 150
Joined: August 1st, 2006, 6:03 pm

Re: small, balanced 1vs1 map

Post by eyu100 »

Ultimatum479 wrote:Paterson's 1, 3, and 4 points are valid. Point 2, however, is something I've noticed in all maps that confuses me: why is it that villages are never to be placed next to mountainous terrain (in which Knalgans get 40-70 dodging) but often near forests (in which Rebels get 40-70 dodging)?
Because a single elf cannot take a defended village (usually). Knalgans also have ulfs.

Also, (21, 13) can't be stolen by a P1 gryphon if P2 responds with another gryphon. However, it can only be easily taken with a gryphon and there are mountains next to villages, so the obvious solution is to remove all mountains not next to villages.
Last edited by eyu100 on May 10th, 2007, 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Icyclemort
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Joined: April 29th, 2007, 5:43 pm

Post by Icyclemort »

@DocPaterson

Thanks a lot for your input (after all, I can only learn from my mistakes and I always have been willing to listen and adapt)

When i say balanced map, i am well aware of my own inexperience, so it means "i tried to make it balanced..." :)
That is, after all, why I was asking for balancing feedback (I hope i didnt sound too convinced of my maps greatness :wink:)

I admit that i royally [censored] up with 21,13. That wasn't possible earlier on, but then i made some changes (less cave walls, freeing up flying units movements) and bang I didn't test it again... :oops: :evil: BTW, you can deny P1 21,13 by moving a scout so that it gets in the way and ZoC-slows the approach, the gryph would not be able to reach the village in 2 turns then. But its lame to force P2 to respond this way, so I'll fix it in a more proper way, putting the village out of gryph (incl. quick gryph) reach.

Regarding your point 4... :shock: That is so cheap an exploit that it never even crossed my mind. Will change it though.... *shaking head*

I did a bit of testing (me vs. me) in controlled conditions regarding your points 3) and you're right. I really shouldn't have rushed out the map after the last of my changes. There was an older version which really was un-drakish. Rereading my own comments from my initial post, I must have already known that i went too far making it more accessible to flighers (I was already stressing how important it was to ZoC flight routs, i sense urgency/despair in my own words while reading them now :roll:)

I'll check on the mountain/village problem. (Both by searching the forum and playing games against myself) I'll have to see that before I believe; especially because it only effects 1 - or 2 mirrored - village(s) in this map.
IMHO, Knalgans are slightly better off than the other races in general. So denying them a mountain next to a village, while allowing forests, might even out things somewhat. But, maps shouldn't do the balancing work for the game mechanic itself, or am i missing something???

:arrow: I'll rework the map (with all your input in mind) tomorrow, we'll see how good a reworked version gets... Thanks again for your feedback
Last edited by Icyclemort on May 10th, 2007, 11:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Icyclemort
Posts: 7
Joined: April 29th, 2007, 5:43 pm

Re: small, balanced 1vs1 map

Post by Icyclemort »

eyu100 wrote: Also, (21, 13) can't be stolen by a P1 gryphon if P2 responds with another gryphon. However, it can only be easily taken with a gryphon and there are mountains next to villages, so the obvious solution is to remove all mountains not next to villages.
Thanks for your feedback too, but to be quite honest, i don't quite get what you mean. Why is removing all mountains not next to villages any kind of solution? to what problem? :? *puzzled*

(not meant as a slight, English not being my native language, I might just be misunderstanding you, or I am just not good enough in BfW yet to really understand what you want to tell me..)

Regards,
Sebastian.

eyu100
Posts: 150
Joined: August 1st, 2006, 6:03 pm

Re: small, balanced 1vs1 map

Post by eyu100 »

Icyclemort wrote:
eyu100 wrote: Also, (21, 13) can't be stolen by a P1 gryphon if P2 responds with another gryphon. However, it can only be easily taken with a gryphon and there are mountains next to villages, so the obvious solution is to remove all mountains not next to villages.
Thanks for your feedback too, but to be quite honest, i don't quite get what you mean. Why is removing all mountains not next to villages any kind of solution? to what problem? :? *puzzled*

(not meant as a slight, English not being my native language, I might just be misunderstanding you, or I am just not good enough in BfW yet to really understand what you want to tell me..)

Regards,
Sebastian.
This would fix the Knalgan advantage (mountain next to village, gryphon steal) by removing nearly all mountains.

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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

eyu100: There is nothing that P2 can do to stop a P1 gryphon from stealing that village, outside of the 50 percent chance that a knalgan player will have to get a quick grypon in their rightmost recruiting hex. The P1 gryph makes it there on turn 2, after player 2 has moved their units only once.

Icyclemort: (Just a reiteration) There is no L1 scout that can prevent the gryphon theft, outside of the quick gryphon.

Also, the changes you have planned sound great.

Ultimatum479: The mountain village imbalance is something that was proven over a long period of developement and testing in the Ancient and Pre-Modern era. :wink: You need to think about 1.) the differences between Dwarf Fighters/Elf Fighters and Elvish Archers/Thunderers 2.) The huge impact of giving Dwarves in particular a much easier time clearing units off of villages, and then occupying those villages.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
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I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
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