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Temples of the nagas -version 1.25 (NEW MAINTAINER!)

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

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Imp
Posts: 317
Joined: January 8th, 2007, 10:56 am

Post by Imp »

Becephalus wrote:Silly cow Orz can smell you. You are a new-baby! Or does Orz smell an extra silly cow? Happy campers like to party. Orz have many fingers and Orz like parties. Is the silly cow a happy camper? If silly cows do not like to party then they are a sad animal and we should dance. Orz does not like sad animals *frumple* Orz does like to dance. Will the silly cows dance with Orz? Silly cows are many bubbles! many bubbles are strange. Silly cows are not slippery either, they are stuck in the middle. Orz can go below heavy space. Orz are very slippery. *frumble* The quick-babies are in the above space. *frumple* Orz wants to dance with the quick-babies, but they do not smell. Your bubbles do not smell either. *frumple* *frumple* Would you like to dance?
You are so repulsive, I cannot stand to look at you another second without retching. I'll just have to blast you instead!

Star Control rocks!
Kalis
Posts: 199
Joined: February 3rd, 2007, 1:51 am
Location: Toronto

Post by Kalis »

:: constant swearing ::
Finally beat the map on hardcore Myth in SP. :D However, when I took a look at the replay, it corrupts on turn 17. ARGHHHHH!!!!!
Map's definitely beatable. It's challenging as heck, but it's beatable.
Had a blast playing it through :D

I used these factions (in order):
wood elves (red mage -> silver mage king), mainly covering Wizzi
chaos (magus -> demonologist), mainly covering Axmail
undead (dark sorceror -> ancient lich), covers Wizzi/Liabra
drakes (drake flare -> Flameheart), covers Axmail/Saxrireii

For the 2nd last wave (death for everyone or whatever) I moved most of the drakes from the southeast corner into the southwest corner (with wood elves), and sent the Bow-drake and trident-drake fighter north (to chaos), along with a few other drakes. It let the drakes hide behind an ally who would have cheap nagas and mermen to take the hits.
For the final wave, the undead also moved south to chaos, so I only had 2 "fronts" from the original 4. This left my army really concentrated and let me wipe out the naga wave, since 1 front had 3 armies, while the other front had the berserker outrider, both drake fighters (blademasters), and the elvish bow Inferno Drake (13-8 marksman fire attack is just nasty).

Items given to:
Double speed item: Undead Dark Sorceror King -> Ancient Lich King
Berserker's Amulet: Elvish Scout(SR) -> Elvish Outrider
Elvish Bow: Drake Burner(IQ) -> Inferno drake (never reached Armageddon)
Hoplite's Shield: Winged Demon(Quick)
Lord's Ring: Elvish Fighter (which died fast lol - I really forgot about it haha)
Silver Ring: Winged Demon(Quick) - the one that got the hoplite's shield
Trident: Drake Fighter(SI)
Enforcer's Equipment: Drake Fighter(SI)
Mage Staff: Drake Slasher (not a great choice because it's low movement was a killer - but I just choose the nearest unit and threw it at him lol).

So no replay, but saves available :/
I might replay it again sometime for the sake of getting a film :)
Sombra
Posts: 273
Joined: August 11th, 2006, 6:38 pm

Post by Sombra »

8) Very nice concept and a cool MAP.
Well it seems the MAP is really in at the moment :)

Personally I would like a little bit more randomess where the enemies appear and perhaps some more randomness what and when the enemies appear.

Right now its a bit to repetive regarding strategy. Take positions run into the center. TAke up positions outside center run into the center....

P:S: The berserker AXE IMHO (Amulett) is to strong
Truper
Posts: 139
Joined: May 16th, 2006, 6:06 pm

Post by Truper »

Sure, the berserker amulet is as absurdly overpowered as an item can be. But in the context of the scenario, it works very well, and adds to the strategy. How well your team uses that item once they get it has a large influence over how well you do. Regardless of the items's presence, so far only Kalis has claimed to beat it on hardcore ;)
CIB
Code Contributor
Posts: 625
Joined: November 24th, 2006, 11:26 pm

Post by CIB »

I think it is too powerful compared with the other items. I mean, speed is rather worthless without a high level unit, the bow should increase your damage by atleast 10 and more items I have not seen =)
Kalis
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Joined: February 3rd, 2007, 1:51 am
Location: Toronto

Post by Kalis »

well, units level quite fast with the items though :)

Personally, I found that the elvish bow is only good on either elvish archers into marksman, or drake burners (quick/resilient ideal).
It increases # of attacks by +2, and increases damage by +5.

So given to something like a ghost or elvish rider, you only get 4-5 attacks.
But with marksman and burners, you start with 6 at level 1, and gain an extra attack per level.
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jb
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Location: Chicago

Post by jb »

Personally I like to give the ranged item to a Thunderer. :)
My MP campaigns
Gobowars
The Altaz Mariners - with Bob the Mighty
Clonkinator
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Joined: July 20th, 2006, 4:45 pm
Location: Germany

Post by Clonkinator »

Btw, I think the enemies are really overpowered. With all those strong-resilient traits the enemies have even a peasant can smash an unlucky spearman lonely. I'd rather suggest to give them random traits, since, well, do you only get strong-resilient units? :oops:
Kalis
Posts: 199
Joined: February 3rd, 2007, 1:51 am
Location: Toronto

Post by Kalis »

played it again beat it, and the replay is corrupted again.
Here's the replay which corrupts on turn 26.

I believe it corrupted on turn 26 because I loaded the autosave. I had accidentally charged the chaos king forward, which would be suicide since the wave comes on turn 28.
If the replay could be fixed... :D

I have the autosaves if they're needed.
Attachments
Temples_of_the_nagas-Auto-Save54.zip
(146 KiB) Downloaded 343 times
Temples_of_the_nagas_replay.zip
(123.65 KiB) Downloaded 337 times
Becephalus
Inactive Developer
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Location: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA, Earth

Post by Becephalus »

Silly min-maxers, when I come back i will beat it with team HODOR!
There are three roads to ruin: by gambling, which is the quickest; through women, which is the most pleasurable; and through taking the advice of experts, which is the most certain. -de Gaulle
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Wintermute
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Location: On IRC as "happygrue" at: #wesnoth-mp

Post by Wintermute »

Clonkinator wrote:Btw, I think the enemies are really overpowered.
I don't think so. I haven't finished it yet (just playing a bit here and there), but clearly it can be won, and if that is the case, I say don't make it any easier :wink:
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."
Truper
Posts: 139
Joined: May 16th, 2006, 6:06 pm

Post by Truper »

Clonkinator: Mytholigical did try to give the enemies random traits, but found that this caused oos errors. Since the traits therefore had to be standardized, strong/resilient was chosen - even for Undead, which normally don't get traits. Its amazing how annoying strong/resilient Vampire Bats can be ;)
CIB
Code Contributor
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Joined: November 24th, 2006, 11:26 pm

Post by CIB »

Look in Useful WML Fragments on the Wiki, there's a random trait macro there that can be used with pseudorandom.
Identity
Posts: 4
Joined: March 28th, 2007, 7:24 pm

Post by Identity »

Yeah, this is an amazing map guys. I tried playing several games with Kalis, where one of my factions seemed to always be the weak link (my chaos dominated, however :D ). He did go on to beat it twice, but what you didn't hear about was the dozen or more failed games previously. It is a very challenging game. Beating epic requires near-flawless play, while hardcore prettymuch requires perfection. It's a great map to try out the different factions and get a feel for how each plays. First impulse led us to think factions with cure would do best, but it turns out more of a sacrificial strategy with offensive factions like chaos or drakes works best.

And to anyone who believes the berserker's axe is too strong, I challenge you to beat the map first. The game's prettymuch perfectly balanced as is.
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Mythological
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Post by Mythological »

OK, time for me to answer to everyone ( I love making gigantic posts 8) ) :
Kalis wrote:played it again beat it, and the replay is corrupted again.
Here's the replay which corrupts on turn 26.

I believe it corrupted on turn 26 because I loaded the autosave. I had accidentally charged the chaos king forward, which would be suicide since the wave comes on turn 28.
If the replay could be fixed... :D

I have the autosaves if they're needed.
I had to ask you for the last turn autosave, because the replay was broken beyond repair. Since you've sent the autosave, you deserve a place in the Hall of fame ( see the starting post in this thread ) as well as everyone else who wins TotN on hardcore from now on. :wink:
I obsed a game yesterday where the players were half a cuttlefish short of winning on hardcore....poor nani and Nosmos.
Becaphalus wrote:Silly min-maxers, when I come back i will beat it with team HODOR!
I am looking forward to your ( or someone's else who can do it with outlaws only ) replay so that I can put HODOR's name in the Hall of fame as well . I think that HODOR deserves it...

Clonkinator wrote:Btw, I think the enemies are really overpowered. With all those strong-resilient traits the enemies have even a peasant can smash an unlucky spearman lonely. I'd rather suggest to give them random traits, since, well, do you only get strong-resilient units?:oops:
You have a point there, Clonkinator. I wanted the spawned units to be just like the recruited one - to have names and traits. As Truper said it - giving the spawned unit random traits causes OOS and ruins the game, and since macros are used to create the units ( except the bosses and guardians ) standard traits for all units have to be used instead - I chose S/R because they make the game more challenging; any other pair of traits would do, but I dont see why I should change S/R with Q/I for example
CIB wrote:Look in Useful WML Fragments on the Wiki, there's a random trait macro there that can be used with pseudorandom.
I am aware of Elvish Pillager's {PSEUDORANDOM} and its use for generating random traits. To be honest, I am not a programmer and I am not sure even if I can implement it correctly, but I havent tried for a good reason - it works (I've tried it when EP tested his maps that used pseudorandom ), but it is very slow , even when there are few units involved. On a large map with many units it like TotN it would create a lag, similar to that one autosaves do and when the new wave is generated ( over 30 new units ) the game will freeze for at least 5 minutes, maybe even half an hour on slow computers. I think that slowing the game which already lasts long even without it would be a too big price to pay to get units with random traits. I am more interested in using {SEMIRANDOM} for the same purpose who is both faster and simpler, but I hate to steal other's code, especialy not from Lunar2 who is very sensitive about that matter.
Identity wrote:Yeah, this is an amazing map guys. I tried playing several games with Kalis, where one of my factions seemed to always be the weak link (my chaos dominated, however Very Happy ). He did go on to beat it twice, but what you didn't hear about was the dozen or more failed games previously. It is a very challenging game. Beating epic requires near-flawless play, while hardcore prettymuch requires perfection. It's a great map to try out the different factions and get a feel for how each plays. First impulse led us to think factions with cure would do best, but it turns out more of a sacrificial strategy with offensive factions like chaos or drakes works best.

And to anyone who believes the berserker's axe is too strong, I challenge you to beat the map first. The game's prettymuch perfectly balanced as is
I like using the Chaos faction on this map myself. But I like Chaos anyway.
Sombra wrote:P:S: The berserker AXE IMHO (Amulett) is to strong
Truper wrote:Sure, the berserker amulet is as absurdly overpowered as an item can be. But in the context of the scenario, it works very well, and adds to the strategy. How well your team uses that item once they get it has a large influence over how well you do. Regardless of the items's presence, so far only Kalis has claimed to beat it on hardcore :wink"
CIB wrote:I think it is too powerful compared with the other items. I mean, speed is rather worthless without a high level unit, the bow should increase your damage by atleast 10 and more items I have not seen :)

About the amulet, all of you are right about it being a very overpowered item, but it does help a lot. Think of it as a helping hand into winning the scenario - it is very useful in killing the bosses and the guardians - thats why it appears so early. But you also have to take care of the unit with it - it is a huge loss if it dies
Kalis wrote:well, units level quite fast with the items though :)

Personally, I found that the elvish bow is only good on either elvish archers into marksman, or drake burners (quick/resilient ideal).
It increases # of attacks by +2, and increases damage by +5.

So given to something like a ghost or elvish rider, you only get 4-5 attacks.
But with marksman and burners, you start with 6 at level 1, and gain an extra attack per level.
jb wrote:Personally I like to give the ranged item to a Thunderer. :)
The Thunderer is the best unit for the bow damage-wise : it has 23-3 for the start and 45-3 as a dragonguard, but the thunderers are slow and they are not the most reliable units even when they have 3 strikes, so a burner or a dextrous elvish archer do just as well.
Sombra wrote: 8) Very nice concept and a cool MAP.
Well it seems the MAP is really in at the moment :)

Personally I would like a little bit more randomess where the enemies appear and perhaps some more randomness what and when the enemies appear.

Right now its a bit to repetive regarding strategy. Take positions run into the center. TAke up positions outside center run into the center....
The concept of the scenario is to be predictable. The AI units appear and attack right away - for example no one would like a WM to appear and instantly kill his undead leader without him being able to do anything after 6 hours of succesful gameplay. That would be too chaotic and luck based. Your idea is good, Sombra, but for a new scenario, not for this one
Clonkinator wrote:Guy is this map THOUGH! But well done. Although it's a bit unfair imo that the zerker-boss can kill any unit for sure. My poor lvl2s...

And although it will be a great challenge I WILL beat it at hardcore, got that?
TotN is supposed to be a challenging way for good players to play against AI. This goes especialy for the hardcore difficulty. F8 posted above arguing that the berserker boss is too weak...I think that the berserker is pretty hard as it is, especially when he gets covered by other units so it can not be reached and killed for several turns, killing a unit each turn himself. But on the other hand, the reward for killing the berserker boss - the amulet - is great. Good luck at beating it, Clonkinator :D
Kalis wrote:Just checking on the templars because I found it a bit strange that the HIGH templars were at low hit points, while a normal templar had really high hp :)
There is actually only one High Templar and that one is not harder to kill than the other templars - but he has some nasty surprises if you are carelss and not kill it in time. All of them have some special abilites - one of them has high HP count, other one has 80% defense everywhere, the other has 70% resistances to everything etc. The Templar with 200+ hitpoints is not necessarily the one strongest of them all

[Off-Topic]
Becephalus wrote:Silly cow Orz can smell you. You are a new-baby! Or does Orz smell an extra silly cow? Happy campers like to party. Orz have many fingers and Orz like parties. Is the silly cow a happy camper? If silly cows do not like to party then they are a sad animal and we should dance. Orz does not like sad animals *frumple* Orz does like to dance. Will the silly cows dance with Orz? Silly cows are many bubbles! many bubbles are strange. Silly cows are not slippery either, they are stuck in the middle. Orz can go below heavy space. Orz are very slippery. *frumble* The quick-babies are in the above space. *frumple* Orz wants to dance with the quick-babies, but they do not smell. Your bubbles do not smell either. *frumple* *frumple* Would you like to dance?
What happened to the Androsynth ? :twisted:
Imp wrote:You are so repulsive, I cannot stand to look at you another second without retching. I'll just have to blast you instead!

Star Control rocks!
For those who wonder what is this all about; those are all famous lines from dialogues from Star Control 2 : Orz, Earthlings and VUX, a game that rocks almost as much as Wesnoth

[/Off-Topic]
Theoretically, love is great
but it is a little bit different in practice.

Riblja Čorba - "I'll break your wings, aeroplane"
Never say never
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