Gryphon Master too weak of an upgrade.

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F8 Binds...
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Post by F8 Binds... »

Glowing Fish wrote:
F8 Binds... wrote:If you think about it, is giving the GM a ranged attack all that bad? Maybe not 8-2, but something like 5-2 or 6-2? The Dwarvish Lord gets a ranged hatchet attack, MUCH MORE hp, and MUCH BETTER melee when it advances. The Lord gains 15 damage, whilst the gryphon gains a mere 6. Look at other scouts. Look at their level-ups. aren't they so much better than the L2 gryphon?
Well, first off, the Dwarvish Lord is a Level 3 unit. It seems to be a little bit unfair to compare the Dwarvish Lord to the Gryphon Master.
I am looking at the gain in leveling, as in damage gained, hp gained, and being an L3 doesn't make much difference in my opinion. OR you can compare the dragoon to the gryphon rider, and the dragoon would win, because it has a deadly ranged attack, decent melee, and very similar movement. Nothing really sticks out about the GM. And so many units can counter it, that it's just a really expensive scouting unit (in AoH) that carries a unimportant title, being the most menouverable unit in the game. I can find atleast 3 units for EVERY faction that can counter this unit easily. Atleast by adding a ranged attack it's only weak against units that use impact, such as trolls, HI, and woses. If you really disagree with this statement, come up with some stats, not opinions. I have no mercy for those that oppose me. If I need to, i will personally make some stats comparing the GM to other scouts. END OF MY SPEECH.
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Glowing Fish
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Post by Glowing Fish »

Well, since you asked for stats:

Dragoon vs. Gryphon Master
Melee=6*4 vs. 15*2
Advantage= In terms of raw damage, the Gryphon Master. In terms of which is better, its hard to say. Often doing all your damage at once is helpful, since you can kill low-HP units before they can retaliate. But with a wounded unit, more attacks gives you better CTK. So I would say this is about even, over all.

Ranged=12*1 vs. None

Advantage= Dragoon, obviously.

Movement=9 vs 10
Advantage:This is more hard to decide, because the Gryphon Master can also cross deep water and mountains easily, terrains the Dragoon can't even enter. The Gryphon also can easily go over shallow water, forests, hills, snow, terrains that slow down the Dragoon quite a bit. So this is also heavily map dependent. But I would say in general the Gryphon Master has a heavy advantage here.

Resistances: Many vs. None (and vulnerbility to impact)
Advantage:The Dragoon has a resistance in several things, while the gryphon Master does not.

Defense: Low vs. High

Advantage:The Dragoon never has high defense, and its defense gets very low in water and swamp and the like. The Gryphon Master has high defense everywhere, besides caves. The Gryphon Master gets a clear advantage here.

Cost: 40 XP or 34 Gold vs 36 XP or 37 Gold

Advantage: The cost, in terms of buying a second level unit (in AoH) or leveling a unit up, are about the same.

Upgrade: 95 XP vs. Not available

Advantage: The Cavalier is a good unit, but it is hard to get, and in default settings, is going to come up almost never.

So, in general, the Dragoon has an advantage in Ranged, and in Resistances. The Gryphon Master has an advantage in movement and defense. It is hard to say, because units become more than the sum of their abilities.
Don't go to Glowing Fish for advice, he will say both yes and no.

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Jetrel
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Post by Jetrel »

One way to look at it is; if I were in a normal wesnoth MP game, and suddenly the .. "wesnoth fairy showed up" and offered me a free unit out of the following list:

• Gryphon Master
• Knight
• Lancer
• Goblin Pillager
• Sky Drake

I would probably *never* take the gryphon master. Ever.

If I really needed a unit that flew, I'd laugh all the way to the bank with the sky drake. I'd give other examples, but you can probably fill them in yourselves.

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JW
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Post by JW »

F8, I think your reasoning is flawed. The Gryphon, to me, is an expensive flying fast fighter : not technically a scout at all in my opinion. Like I mentioned previously, only 3 level 1 units in the game can deal more damage than it, only 1 unit can move farther than it (Elvish Scout over good ground), and no unit is more expensive. It is a melee specialist with heavy hits and few reps.

To continue this trend I would expect the melee damage and speed to increase accordingly, which the speed surely does. The melee lacks in this department however, as I also mentioned previously.

In my humble opinion the extra experience given by this unit is more of a drawback than the benefit of having the slightly increased stats.

That surely should not be the case. Luckily, I enjoy the level 1 unit enough that I still recruit them anyway. I try to give my xp to Dwarf Fighters of Thieves.

-edit-

ps, also mentioned previously, I would just up his melee. Maybe his hp, but also probably his xp.

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Noyga
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Post by Noyga »

I was wrong with the gryphon rider melee, dunno why i had in mind the strong gryphon melee (13-2).
I think +1 damage (16-2), maybe +2 might be OK for the gryphon rider, more would be too much IHMO (insane with its mobility).
I don't think they really need more HP, they can use their great mobility to heal often.

In Jetryl's list here is are preferences :
1) Goblin Pillager
2) Knight
3) Gryphon Master
4) Lancer
5) Sky Drake

I quite insure for the Knight vs Pillager, i would depend on the situation.
If i want to make a suprise attack, i would choose the Gryphon master over the Lancer, because it has a better mobility (especially over rought terrain) and there are often zoc line near open ground that would stop the lancer.
If i want some melee power for the final blow, i would choose the Lancer.
I would have no use of the sky drake in most situation.
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Post by im the one you think of »

Just poitning out a few flaws in your logic
Glowing Fish wrote:Well, since you asked for stats:

Dragoon vs. Gryphon Master
Melee=6*4 vs. 15*2
Advantage= In terms of raw damage, the Gryphon Master. In terms of which is better, its hard to say. Often doing all your damage at once is helpful, since you can kill low-HP units before they can retaliate. But with a wounded unit, more attacks gives you better CTK. So I would say this is about even, over all.
24 damage v 30, the gryphon clearly wins, the amount of strikes shouldn't even be considered, especially not when the gryphon is 25% stronger.
Glowing Fish wrote: Resistances: Many vs. None (and vulnerbility to impact)
Advantage:The Dragoon has a resistance in several things, while the gryphon Master does not.
The dragoon has weakness to pierce, which is much more common, but i agree it has the gryph beat on resistances.

Overall, gryphon master is the better unit unless your fighting a swarm of attackers with impact in a cave, and you were stupid enough to get ZOCed.

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Post by Gus »

im the one you think of wrote:Just poitning out a few flaws in your logic
Glowing Fish wrote: [...]
24 damage v 30, the gryphon clearly wins, the amount of strikes shouldn't even be considered, especially not when the gryphon is 25% stronger.
If you're fighting a unit with 6 or less HP left, it is much more valuable. I assume, without calculation so i might be wrong, that it's also true for a unit with less than 12 HP left.
Hard work may pay off in the long run, but laziness always pays off right away.

im the one you think of
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Post by im the one you think of »

Gus wrote:
im the one you think of wrote:Just poitning out a few flaws in your logic
24 damage v 30, the gryphon clearly wins, the amount of strikes shouldn't even be considered, especially not when the gryphon is 25% stronger.
If you're fighting a unit with 6 or less HP left, it is much more valuable. I assume, without calculation so i might be wrong, that it's also true for a unit with less than 12 HP left.
But in every other circumstance the gryphon master is much more valuable, so unless i know that that exact situation will come up very often I'd get the gryph.

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Post by MCP »

Easiest upgrade is to maximum hp and to defensive % of pierce or blade for instance.

On Dragoon vs Gryphon Melee, the Dragoon has 30%(?) def vs blade. So the raw damage is even without attributes/daytime.

Gus
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Post by Gus »

im the one you think of wrote: But in every other circumstance the gryphon master is much more valuable, so unless i know that that exact situation will come up very often I'd get the gryph.
But that doesn't mean you shouldn't account for the advantage of the Dragoon. It's like saying the Halberdier sucks because you're only using him when pierce is involved...
Hard work may pay off in the long run, but laziness always pays off right away.

UngeheuerLich
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Post by UngeheuerLich »

sorry for bringing this up in this thread:

gryphons are a very hard counter vs vampire bats... and dark adepts.

On mp maps with water you get serious problems already. And vampire bat upgrade damage was even reduced by 1 (ok i admit that it had a damage increase of over 100% before).

They are even more than a match vs ghost and have at least more mobility.

When you buff the gryphon upgrade, make xp requirement higher in return, and a hp or slight damage upgrade should be fine.

a ranged attack however will imbalance this unit since you can easily charge down all units with no risk.

Sandman
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Post by Sandman »

I see that main problem touched by Jetryl is that Gryphon Master have to take a lot of damages because it has only melee attack.

I think that I have a solution. Why don't we give GM another attack with charge? It should be only 1-15 or 1-16, but it would make GM able to take off unit, and prevent counterattack.

It wouldn't overpowered him, becoust if he miss...

Hope this would help

Sandman
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Leo
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Post by Leo »

Guys, I just want to say that I also think that GM is weak comparable to another 2nd lvl units. I don't think that GM isn't useful, but some minor increase in HP can make GM better.

Sombra
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Post by Sombra »

The gryphon lvl 1 is a very strong unit and allready widely used in MP. As they level quite regularly I dont see the need to give them now a 2nd level "supper" unit on tops.

I think strong lvl1 unit => weak/medium lvl2 unit

and weak lvl1 => medium /stong lvl2 units works from the balance perspective.

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Post by Airk »

Jetryl wrote:One way to look at it is; if I were in a normal wesnoth MP game, and suddenly the .. "wesnoth fairy showed up" and offered me a free unit out of the following list:

• Gryphon Master
• Knight
• Lancer
• Goblin Pillager
• Sky Drake

I would probably *never* take the gryphon master. Ever.

If I really needed a unit that flew, I'd laugh all the way to the bank with the sky drake. I'd give other examples, but you can probably fill them in yourselves.
But what if you had to pick between the level 2 units available to the Knalgans? :P

I keep seeing people assert (such as in the Poacher thread a while back) that units are 'balanced' inside their faction and not against their analogues in other areas. This thread seems, by and large, to fly in the face of that.

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