4P - Exodus

[FleshPeeler]

I've decided to try my hand at building a new map that challenges the way people play Wesnoth. After many failed attempts and numerous drafts, playtests, and tweaks, here is the result of that work:

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[/map]

The intent of this map is to make your leader more active. Normally, that L2 unit could be a valuable part of your strike force, but the problem is it is forced to camp at the home base and continue recruiting units. Some maps have a few extra bases to run to, but doing so causes great risk and could cost one the entire game if they don't reach it in time.

This map addresses that problem by making it pretty much necessary to do this in order to win.

Features:
- 3-sectioned map adds variability of play. This map was designed for 4 player FFA, but can also be played 2v2 either East v. West or North v. South.
- The game essentially boils down to two separate 1v1 battles (unless playing East v. West) on the sides of the map with the center being disputed mostly by scouts for the towns. Other possibilities exist, however; enemy units from the other side could intervene in either side's battle. Or, your opponent might turn and flee straight for the center, where they can defend themselves at a serious advantage.
-The goal: Beat your opponent first so that you can advance into the center. There you will have a Keep with the largest recruitable area, lots of defensible terrain, and more towns secured. Whoever reaches the center first is pretty much certain to win.

Feel free to bring up any blatant balance issues you might see. This map has been tested with every race through several scenarios (and has gone through numerous changes as a result), but I can't guarantee perfection. If you bring up a good point I'm very willing to change the map to suit overall balance.

[JW]

Very interesting map, but players 1 and 2 can easily beat their opponents by recruiting in the center keeps on turn 2. It's only 12 hexes away. This should give them a huge village advantage as well, leading to total domination by both players.

A few tweaks and I think this could be awesome.

[Sapient]

All it needs now are warp-portals.

When I first saw the map I assumed it was meant to be played east versus west. I think those problematic water zones in the north and south could get a lot of action. I see that you did vary the terrain instead of using one type of water; still, I think there could be some factional balance problems there, which would vary depending on the matchup.

For example, ghosts would block nagas if the game is played north v. south, since it would take a lot of foresight to get an orc archer(s) in place. If the game is played east v. west then you would be able to commit more troops to the water strip, and then factions such as Loyalists would get the upper hand.

[JW]

Here are some changes I made:

*north and south waterways made slightly more land friendly
*pathways to center made slightly more accessible
*2 water villages added for each side to add incentive for water units - also adds income to, IMO, a village lacking map
*moved P3 and P4 secondary keeps 1 hex closer to benefit Dwarf leaders
*removed a center village on west and east sides to decrease advantage of claiming the center keep
*made center slightly more water friendly with sunken/swamp castle hexes
*superficially changed impassible mountains to mountains in the corners




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[FleshPeeler]

On the topic of P1 reaching the center first: This was my biggest challenge when building the map. Since Wesnoth is turn-based, it seems impossible to make a map that's styled as a race when clearly the person who moves first would reach the goal first. It is in fact more effective to hold off all recruiting until turn 2 when you can enter the base, especially if you're Rebels.

To counterbalance this, I tried several things:
-Added lots of hills around the central Keeps. Hills are a versatile terrain that all races can take advantage of, and slower leaders (typical of Knalgans and Northerners) can move over them more quickly. Elves have the easiest ability to reach the Keep, but they seem to receive little defensive benefit other than the hills which give them no better advantage than other races.
-The center of the map is easier to access by players 3 and 4 because the impassable mountain wall ends at a point closer to their starting position. That way, if the player going first rushes the center and succeeds, the player going second has a chance to opt for the center which has a bigger and better advantage (especially Knalgans who can take the most advantage of the "hidden" mountain path between the walls - but I see that you removed the mountain next to the town, which is probably for the best )
-One tile of snow is added to the starting players' sides. The intended affect is that this slows them down, but it also creates a possibility that a hasty player will run into it and mistakenly wind up in a poor position. However, that snow tile also gives players 1 and 2 a slight defensive advantage.

I like the changes you made, JW. However I personally feel that there might be too many water towns now (I had intended on keeping few towns in this map to make recruiting more strategic). Here is a slight change I made (Changed only the town locations in the upper/lower sea zones).

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[/map]

The town in the dead center used to be there in a previous rendition, and it was nice because it's in a position for great conflict. Let me know your thoughts on it.

[FleshPeeler]

One very big problem with this map that I forgot to mention: the AI gets really confused playing with this map.

-AI's tendency to drift towards the top of the map sometimes sends their leaders into useless positions in the sea above. Also they sometimes completely ignore their opponent to engage each other over sea.
-Biggest problem is that the AI will almost always wind up in the tiny sub-Keep that gives them 1 recruitable space, and once there they rarely ever budge. The end result is that a fight against an AI opponent tends to be very one-sided.

Remarkably, an AI opponent taking over for someone who left in the middle of the game happens to play incredibly well. I once witnessed an AI completely obliterate its opponent (as Elves, they killed a human Loyalist player) in as little as three or four turns.

If anyone is interested in seeing some replays of the map in its testing phases (including older versions of the map), ask and I will post them.

[Sapient]

One very big problem with this map that I forgot to mention: the AI gets really confused playing with this map.

-AI's tendency to drift towards the top of the map sometimes sends their leaders into useless positions in the sea above.

That one sounds like an AI bug. Maybe you should post the replay to https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?group=wesnoth.

[SkeletonCrew]

I've seen that AI behaviour before. If you change the impassable mountains above keep 4 to normal mountains, I'm quite sure the AI wants to run to position 1,1. It's still a bug and somewhere on my todo list (but low). The other problem the AI sees a keep close to it and use that and doesn't consider whether or not there is a better keep somewhere. I've seen that behaviour too before.

Putting keep 1 where keep 4 is now might work a little bit better, with the current AI.

[JW]

I've seen that AI behaviour before. If you change the impassable mountains above keep 4 to normal mountains, I'm quite sure the AI wants to run to position 1,1. It's still a bug and somewhere on my todo list (but low). The other problem the AI sees a keep close to it and use that and doesn't consider whether or not there is a better keep somewhere. I've seen that behaviour too before.

Putting keep 1 where keep 4 is now might work a little bit better, with the current AI.

Or they could remain impassible mountains as before my edit.

[SkeletonCrew]

I've seen that AI behaviour before. If you change the impassable mountains above keep 4 to normal mountains, I'm quite sure the AI wants to run to position 1,1. It's still a bug and somewhere on my todo list (but low). The other problem the AI sees a keep close to it and use that and doesn't consider whether or not there is a better keep somewhere. I've seen that behaviour too before.

Putting keep 1 where keep 4 is now might work a little bit better, with the current AI.

Or they could remain impassible mountains as before my edit.

That doesn't matter, but it seems as soon as the AI thinks the situation is hopeless it tries to move it's leader to 1,1 and stay there until the situation improves. Of course the odds that the situation improves while you're hiding in a corner are rather slim I've observed that behaviour rather often while testing.

[FleshPeeler]

Alright, I will dig out the AI glitch replays.

For now, here's a replay from last night that I'm certain warrants some reworking of the left/right side terrains. Elves destroy the map in a total of 22 turns, killing their opponent on turn 4 (I played as Elves using the strategy JW suggested). This replay is of the latest map shown in this thread - that is, my changes after JW's changes. This was me vs. 3 AI opponents, so some of their bad behavior can be seen in this replay.

I'll be back later with a new version of the map.

[eyu100]

I think this map is very interesting, but it has been neglected. Therefore, I have bumped it.

[playtom]

-AI's tendency to drift towards the top of the map sometimes sends their leaders into useless positions in the sea above. Also they sometimes completely ignore their opponent to engage each other over sea.
-Biggest problem is that the AI will almost always wind up in the tiny sub-Keep that gives them 1 recruitable space, and once there they rarely ever budge. The end result is that a fight against an AI opponent tends to be very one-sided.

if you are interested, i'd help you making a scenario file fixing this problem, i can make the ai avoid the tiny sub-keep as well as making them aggressive and target their enemys.

this would be an amazing map with some race features, we can set up a barrier of high lvl monsters in the middle keep to heavily guard it, the first player who reachs the keep with their leader wins, but in the mean time you run to the center, also keep an eye out for enemy who wants to take you down and eliminate possible threat to their victory.