Defense of the Goblin II - A new version, a new world!

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Post Reply
Lunar2
Posts: 165
Joined: July 3rd, 2004, 1:17 am

Post by Lunar2 »

Ok, I'll try to respond to all this.

First off, I had no intention of distributing this map, but mainly put it here for Baufo to take a look at and decide if he wanted to add anything from it.

1) Banking functions the same as it does in DotG, except at a 7% rate. Personally, I hate the banking dynamic and would like it removed, but that's just me and that opinion's a minority.

2) Notice how all the units you speak of are in the Newb Heroes category? That's because they're not intended to be chosen. There's no reason I need to ban them, because it is quite easy for a host to say "No Newb Heroes" when hosting. They're there for 2v3 matches.

3) It also helps separate a quicker turn from a slower one. The reason I made that change should be obvious in another way - take a look at the 110g damage upgrade. Now you have your choice of +2 for 130g, or +1/+1 for 110g.

4) Again, this is something that DotG did before I touched it. I agree that it is too cheap, but I disagree despite repeated arguments saying how overpowered the Thunderer is, the Elvish Archer is my counterexample. Ban one and you gotta ban both, and I'm not banning the Elvish Archer.

5) Look at the full picture here. With the changes I've made to creeps, buying stat upgrades are an afterthought, not the primary purchase for them. I don't want to see Lv1 or Lv2 creeps on Turn 4-5 with a ton of +damage/+health upgrades. There was a time I took out health upgrades entirely. Creeps can be a major factor in the outcome, but they should not determine the outcome alone. Having creeps prevent the other team from shopping, let alone them winning the game for you, is something I chose to avoid.

6) I changed it from 200g/+100 per purchase to 150g/+75 per purchase. This is mainly to compensate for general price drops across the board, especially with weapon prices. Most weapons are far more enticing now. Also, the more accessible speed purchases are, the less likely the game will stalemate because both sides are too slow to reach the other's base alive.

I also have to ask - have you ever played DotW (the original) while it was being developed, or after it was first published? That's a finely tuned map there, largely due to my experience with the map with constant playtesting and adjusting. I have applied some of the things I learned from that project here, while keeping in mind DotG is more action-packed and thus less subject to being perfectly balanced.
---
1. I assume you mean creeps each time you say peasant.
2. It's the only part of this mod not 100% tested. There are still possible issues when an observer subs for someone who has been using missiles that it will then cause OOS.
3. Yes. The only purpose of it is a random pool of non-Newb Heroes, plus a few slightly overpowered units as a bonus for choosing Random.
4. 2% was grossly underpowered. The current stealing is far mored useful (and somewhat more popular), yet still costs enough and lacks enough damage that it is fair, considering the extra deaths/lack of kills you get by using an underpowered weapon compensate for anything you steal.
5. This is why the upgrades have been significantly nerfed, as stated a few posts above.
6. Creep overpowering is possible. However, it is much harder to maintain for an extended period of time, which is a good thing in my book.
---
1. Because +10% will add at least 2 hp to all the selectable units. Saves you 1 gold in healing costs compared to DotG.

No offense to you, but try playtesting it with other people some more before being too harsh in your judgement.
Back from retirement, current project: Auction
unit12
Posts: 66
Joined: April 11th, 2007, 11:49 pm

Post by unit12 »

removed
Last edited by unit12 on May 10th, 2007, 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lunar2
Posts: 165
Joined: July 3rd, 2004, 1:17 am

Post by Lunar2 »

Baufo, any chance that you can fix that issue with the missile launcher for me (get rid of stoning, and make it 0 movement, disabled attack after firing instead)?
Back from retirement, current project: Auction
User avatar
Baufo
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1115
Joined: January 29th, 2006, 4:53 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Post by Baufo »

DotG II is ready!
The scenario was rewritten from scratch and uses a lot cleaner WML now. It is simplified in som areas (fewer buyable weapons, defenses for the goblin and passages removed, etc.) but the I think a really cool thing is the first real item system. You can buy items (spells and potions) in the shop and the use them with Sapient's awesome right click menu. There are currently very few items though but I plan to add more of them in the future, for instance Lunar2's missle launcher (sorry I overlooked your post, of course I can fix that) and other WML heavy stuff.

It's of course entirely off-balanced at the moment and bugs might occur.

You can download the new version from the dev version add-on server.
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Baufo
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1115
Joined: January 29th, 2006, 4:53 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Post by Baufo »

Version 2.1 uploaded to the campaign server. A pitty so few people are playing 1.3 yet which makes testing really difficult.

I also forgot to mention that the new grouping of shop options is pretty similar to DotM, lots of the names of the places are stolen from there.
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
MCP
Posts: 518
Joined: May 23rd, 2005, 5:23 pm
Location: California

Post by MCP »

Since the forum was rolled back:
1. Peasant upgrade costs are too cheap.
2. Make a Full Heal option. I really hate doing +20hp * 10

There are other issues but I need to figure them out in more detail before I post.
MCP
Posts: 518
Joined: May 23rd, 2005, 5:23 pm
Location: California

Post by MCP »

The Legendary come back of Zeus and MCP against soysause(and ally who left early).

DOTG 0.7.10a in wesnoth 1.2.4(stable)


I've attached the replay, however when I tried to watch it random stuff happened since I am on OS X wesnoth 1.2.4 and the replay Zeus saved was on windows wesnoth 1.2.4.

But this battle is nothing less than an epic in itself.

I'm gonna have to figure out how to fight five yetis...
Attachments
THE MOST LEGENDARY DOTG EVER.1.2.4.replay.tar
Works on windows Wesnoth 1.2.4. Just rename from .replay.tar into just .replay
(334.34 KiB) Downloaded 414 times
kesnar
Posts: 34
Joined: December 29th, 2007, 6:49 pm
Location: Here!!!
Contact:

Post by kesnar »

Emmm... Can I ask a question???

Will DotG be playable with the new 1.4 Wesnoth???
User avatar
Baufo
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1115
Joined: January 29th, 2006, 4:53 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Post by Baufo »

kesnar wrote:Emmm... Can I ask a question???

Will DotG be playable with the new 1.4 Wesnoth???
I won't convert 0.7.10a, but I think I am going to fix 2.1 which was originally designed for the 1.4 branch.
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Baufo
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1115
Joined: January 29th, 2006, 4:53 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Post by Baufo »

Alright, I made DotG II 1.4 compatible and polished it a bit.

From the changelog:
- fixed the map to be 1.4 compatible
- added bankrobber blade/robin hood bow
- added runeblade
- fixed potion limit

You can get it from the campaign server! Enjoy!
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Baufo
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1115
Joined: January 29th, 2006, 4:53 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Post by Baufo »

Alright, just for the record (since I've so far been posting for every version I released):

Version 2.2a:
- fixing bug to make town portal spell work correctly
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
MCP
Posts: 518
Joined: May 23rd, 2005, 5:23 pm
Location: California

Post by MCP »

Hey baufo zeus and I are going to play it now we'll tell you what we think!

holy crap we got a six person game!!! wow

soooo... Looks great. Peasants can kill the goblin fun.
Banking still works, living off of interest with minimal health required can work.Hmm.
User avatar
Baufo
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1115
Joined: January 29th, 2006, 4:53 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Post by Baufo »

MCP wrote:soooo... Looks great. Peasants can kill the goblin fun.
Banking still works, living off of interest with minimal health required can work.Hmm.
Yep, I just experienced a creep upgrading game too - now I have drastically increased the prices for creep upgrades.

Did banking really work just as it did in 0.7.10a? My experiences are that it works but far worse because of the 30% loss when you die.
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
MCP
Posts: 518
Joined: May 23rd, 2005, 5:23 pm
Location: California

Post by MCP »

Baufo wrote:30% loss when you die.
Don't die.

lol. It'll make you spend just enough to not die. But in fact I'm not sure about -30%, that is quite a lot of your total savings.

So it'll make people less aggressive I think in some ways since you want to protect your bank, and then if you have a shot at killing a banker it's worth even more because it's -30% of his savings + some free gold for your team. But before people wouldn't mind dying if it got them back to the bank and somehow economically worked out ok.

So here is a quick strategy we came up with, one banks and hides(literally in the mushrooms), and the other two get strong enough to stop whatever it is the other side has. If they have two people banking and you are fast enough you can score a fatal blow early on by first killing a hero, then being in range to attack him next turn. So he HAS to spend his money or else he loses 30%*30% of his original savings, which is fairly overpowered in some cases.

So if your goal is to force people to spend money in more situations it's a nice thought, and as it stands now I really like it because being able to bank is a more difficult skill than before, and it's just as powerful as long as you don't die(lol). Which will separate 'scrubs' from veterans even more.

I like how the villages are worth more as compared to before, very very good addition to make people more aggressive despite the worse death penalty. Maybe villages could be worth even more, before they were 70 now they could be 125, one half of a hero kill per person?
Ahh good old theory fighting I don't know how that would work without trying it out.

ps Zeus and I played a Footpad, poacher, and a drake fighter. Lol never seen any of them before. I think a poacher is a lot more viable now. We were up against two wose and one skeleton so lol drake was alright. My footpad eventually won the game by upgrading creeps through interest.
MCP
Posts: 518
Joined: May 23rd, 2005, 5:23 pm
Location: California

Post by MCP »

BUG report lol:
Zeus(2p) and I(1p) are playing 1v1, and we are trying out the spells.

So for some reason Zeus is using the xp drain spell and it's slowing him... and poisoning him! wtf?!

fast forward to turn 14 right after the mountains appear.
Then on turn fifteen the mermaid casts xp drain on my the gryphon and the mermaid goes slow and poison!

I was laughing all kinds at zeus's misfortune.
Attachments
DotGII_22c_XPdrain_slow_poison.gz
xp drain == slow wtf?
(66.56 KiB) Downloaded 234 times
Post Reply