Defense of the Goblin II - A new version, a new world!

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Post Reply
MCP
Posts: 518
Joined: May 23rd, 2005, 5:23 pm
Location: California

Post by MCP »

polynomial grows more slowly than exponential.

lim(x->inf) (x^2 / 2^x) using L'Hopitals rule you'll quickly see it is exponential which grows faster in the long run.

Anyways I don't think a polynomial growth is worth 250 gold, it would just take more time to upgrade HP to a decent amount. I still think decaying the growth percentage is a better solution than any I have heard so far. It would be possible to do it in two if statements per purchase of hp, just use some math and state variables for each player(if possible).


So JW, if you drop the HP growth and raise the reward for killing heroes, you've really turned this game into a bloodbath which will probably end when one hero gates in and one turn kills the other sides goblin. I just don't think it will be as fun as it is now. But I will admit there is some potential in your method for fun, however the gap between 'newbs' and veterans drops significantly. It is just my experience that when the gap between newbs and vets is big it's more fun to spend time thinking about the game and playing it a lot because you'll be learning a lot.
User avatar
governor
Posts: 267
Joined: December 8th, 2006, 12:32 am

Post by governor »

irrevenant wrote:You are able to buy the baneblade attack for your goblin multiple times (I assume the same applies to other weapon purchases). This option really should disappear after it's been selected once.

[EDIT] Also could the gate change visibly (glow or something) when it opens, please?
I have tried the WML for this. Until you can use if then else inside a message block this can never happen - I mean in the message block, not the message-option-command hierarchy. (This also cannot be performed in the preprocessor using macros.)

This means you need to code for every possible permutation of the shop. Perhaps the best option is just to flag that it has already been purchased and then check it inside the command block of that particular option. I.E. On second purchase either no money is withdrawn or a msg box notifies you it is already purchased.

I am very much against the gate being visible. The gate is an excellent way to beat youngsters who feel that starting with 1700 gold is the way to go. One player opens the gate on turn 1. The other banks. Once all the enemies are out of range of the shops, the banker improves himself, next turn he slays the enemy goblin. Usually happens easily on turn 4. You need about 8 movement points to pull this off from standing on the shop. Standing further back (fully upgraded) usually lets the enemies know what is about to happen.

Someone said that Yeti's should only attack heroes. I disagree completely. It is very important for the Yeti to stay the same. Only focusing on heroes will be detrimental to the DotG experience, making Yetis worth way more than they should be.

Anyhow, after numerous games, I find that in a creep battle (both sides upgrade creeps only) the west side will always win. This is because the east side creeps are far too intrepid and move adjacent to the west villages on the first turn (where they are immediately dispatched by heroes and creeps). I feel that this can be resolved by reducing creep movement by two, adjusting the creep ai to favor terrain, or move the creep spawn locations back two tiles. Either way, this is a difficult balancing issue.
maudlin27
Posts: 10
Joined: January 4th, 2007, 9:54 am

Post by maudlin27 »

Alternatively couldn't the creeps just go one after the other? As it is I'd agree the West side definately has an early advantage - for example if both teams spend all their gold on their creeps, west side creeps gain the full bonus when they're spawned, whereas the east side will be spawned before 2 of the players have had a chance to invest their initial gold, and will also try to attack heros in villages meaning they'll die faster too. Over time it balances out, but initially the West side has a definate advantage. Perhaps if the East Side's AI was moved to player 7 and west side to 8 it'd be better as the creeps could be fully upgraded then (although it still wouldn't be ideal).
User avatar
Baufo
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1115
Joined: January 29th, 2006, 4:53 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Post by Baufo »

maudlin27 wrote:Alternatively couldn't the creeps just go one after the other? As it is I'd agree the West side definately has an early advantage - for example if both teams spend all their gold on their creeps, west side creeps gain the full bonus when they're spawned, whereas the east side will be spawned before 2 of the players have had a chance to invest their initial gold, and will also try to attack heros in villages meaning they'll die faster too. Over time it balances out, but initially the West side has a definate advantage. Perhaps if the East Side's AI was moved to player 7 and west side to 8 it'd be better as the creeps could be fully upgraded then (although it still wouldn't be ideal).
Well, this seems easy to do but it is quite some work, actually.
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
MCP
Posts: 518
Joined: May 23rd, 2005, 5:23 pm
Location: California

Post by MCP »

Zeus and I have just "discovered" a crazy tactic, it involves upgrading creeps(strikes), teamwork, and buying a yeti or two, or eight.

It works really well.


perhaps too well.
User avatar
governor
Posts: 267
Joined: December 8th, 2006, 12:32 am

Post by governor »

maudlin27 wrote:Alternatively couldn't the creeps just go one after the other? As it is I'd agree the West side definately has an early advantage - for example if both teams spend all their gold on their creeps, west side creeps gain the full bonus when they're spawned, whereas the east side will be spawned before 2 of the players have had a chance to invest their initial gold, and will also try to attack heros in villages meaning they'll die faster too. Over time it balances out, but initially the West side has a definate advantage. Perhaps if the East Side's AI was moved to player 7 and west side to 8 it'd be better as the creeps could be fully upgraded then (although it still wouldn't be ideal).
I have actually simulated this case a few times in a 1vs1 DotG where turn order was 1,2,4(east-creeps),8(west-creeps). Both sides upgraded creeps immediately, however due to the fact that east side creeps move too far west, the west creeps can gang up on 1 east creep. In doing so, they move to locations where the east creeps cannot reach within a turn. This allows west creeps to gang up on east creeps for the next few turns, generally by turn 5 there are no east creeps on the field. The west side is greatly advantaged now because he has gold from enemy kills, as well as many units on the field.

This is not 100% indicative of a true 3vs3 DotG game, however it reveals that a major cause for creep imbalance is their movement. The other major factor is how the ai places its creeps adjacent to a village with only 40% defense that can be immediately attacked by newly spawned creeps and the west heroes. For these reasons, I suggested lower movement and changing the creep ai to favor terrain. Of course the results of these changes wont be apparent until play-tested.
RedLTeut
Posts: 63
Joined: October 6th, 2005, 9:21 pm
Contact:

Post by RedLTeut »

How about allowing to upgrade creep movement?
eyu100
Posts: 150
Joined: August 1st, 2006, 6:03 pm

Post by eyu100 »

MCP wrote:Zeus and I have just "discovered" a crazy tactic, it involves upgrading creeps(strikes), teamwork, and buying a yeti or two, or eight.

It works really well.


perhaps too well.
What is this tactic?
MCP
Posts: 518
Joined: May 23rd, 2005, 5:23 pm
Location: California

Post by MCP »

eyu100 wrote:
MCP wrote:Zeus and I have just "discovered" a crazy tactic, it involves upgrading creeps(strikes), teamwork, and buying a yeti or two, or eight.

It works really well.


perhaps too well.
What is this tactic?
Three vs Three.

I'll be referring to team members as first, second and third.
Turn One: First two players are fast enough to take a village first turn and visit the shop to bank. Third player buys one strike for yeti. The third player can be any hero because he will mostly be banking. Probably a dwarf. First two players are probably Gryphons.

Turn Two: Players one and two either take the top villages or flee back to the bank. Third player does something.

Turn Three: Players one and two can now afford to buy one yeti each, buy two Yetis. Third player buys a strike for peasants if you plan to buy more yetis.

Hope you get some hero kills.

Yea, so this tactic is to gain an economic edge over the opposing side. You can do whatever you want after this(bank), but your heroes may be significantly weaker than the other side's heroes. So far I've normally ended up just upgrading peasants and buying more yetis.

+1 Strike: Increase cost of yeti's by 300 gold.
+1 Melee Damage and +1 Health: Increase the cost of yeti's by 30 gold.
+1 Ranged Damage: Don't know if it increases the cost of the yeti.

Each turn the cost of the yeti drops by 5%. Thus the strategy has the third player buy the strike at the end of a turn.
User avatar
F8 Binds...
Saurian Cartographer
Posts: 622
Joined: November 26th, 2006, 3:13 pm
Location: Mid-Western United States

Post by F8 Binds... »

so what you are doing in this strategy is upgrading the number of strikes for creeps, but in doing so, you improve the power of the yeti tenfold. so if you improve the # of strikes 4 times, that's a 32-6 attack, which takes significantly more gold to get in a hero than a yeti. Am I correct here? Interesting strategy, I like it.
Proud creator of 4p- Underworld. Fascinated by Multiplayer design and balance.
I am the lone revenant of the n3t clan.
Lunar2
Posts: 165
Joined: July 3rd, 2004, 1:17 am

Post by Lunar2 »

I'm going to go ahead and post my modded version here, take any features out of it that you find interesting. Currently, I'm not sure whether the missile launchers are OOS-safe or not, but everything else is tested and should work.

Just a short list of things:

* All weapons have been changed in some way or another, and three new weapons added.
* Interest is 7% rather than 10%. I think 5% is best for balance but people seem to enjoy banking.
* Added new ways to upgrade creeps, now there's 12 different creeps you can generate out of your spawns. To offset changes, upgrade costs were raised and rise further per purchase, and there has been a creep nuke added. Also, each team has a maximum "creeps in play" that can only be raised through an upgrade.
* Terrain Wizard has 4 new options that change a decent portion of the map to the terrain of your choice. Opponents can use it too, but cost rises 50% per use by either side.
* Also, the "secret passageways" have been widened and made vastly cheaper so that they actually see some use.
* Ulfserker changed to Red Mage to promote buyable creeps that have projectiles, not just melee.
* Explosive made more accurate and given a semi-exponential damage upgrade to let it see more use.
* Creep kills no longer give gold, but players do get a bigger base income to offset that some.
* Messages moved to Tutorial section of the shop, since most people admit they don't read them anyway. Added a "restore default labels" to help out newbies whenever a jerk wipes the field of labels.
Attachments
dotg-mod.zip
Dotg-Mod, DotG with my custom modifications
(13.65 KiB) Downloaded 217 times
Back from retirement, current project: Auction
User avatar
Baufo
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1115
Joined: January 29th, 2006, 4:53 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Post by Baufo »

Cool! To be honest I have lost a bit touch to the DotG players so it's great that you continue this work. Here are some quick thoughts:

- I think 10% interest is alright, most people simply don't know how to counter it, think they have an advantage and then get shocked that they have not and start whining. You just have to play more agressively when facing a banker.

- Removing Ulfs and adding more creeps was something I planned to do, I was just too lazy.

- Those new terrain wizard options seem very interesting!

- And the secret passage ways where kinda underpowered too!

- A different bonus for creeps might be interesting too, I don't really know what to think about it right now.

- The explosive is alright, I think. At least when I was playing DotG a lot I was using it often with good success.

Well, maybe I can start playing a bit more DotG again but I think if I do I will make some real big changes or cool weapon specials since I somehow got a bit bored by the current one so I am really curious to see your new weapons!
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Baufo
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1115
Joined: January 29th, 2006, 4:53 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Post by Baufo »

Wow! I have just played it a bit and I have to say I like it! This real ranged attack is cool, looks like it was a real pain to code! Just a little question: why do you stone the unit after casting it instead of setting its movement and attacks_left to 0? And was the decision not to kill units units but leave them alive with 1 hp a balancemnet/gameplay decision or did it cause probelms otherwise?
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
Lunar2
Posts: 165
Joined: July 3rd, 2004, 1:17 am

Post by Lunar2 »

The stone was because I didn't know about those parameters - you should add those in, it'll fix the problems I had with it. Leaving them at 1 hp was for balance reasons - I didn't want it to generate exp or gold for the user.

10% interest might be fine in DotG, but the changes I've made prevent things like Yeti rushes from being viable. Because of this, banking had to be cut some.
Back from retirement, current project: Auction
MCP
Posts: 518
Joined: May 23rd, 2005, 5:23 pm
Location: California

Post by MCP »

Long post ahead aimed at Lunar2. Balance this map out please!! PLEASE! It could be even more fun than original dotg if all is done.

Things needing to be considered for change(or well I think they NEED to be changed):
1. Banking should only work on money in the bank, not money gained everywhere.
2. Remove the starting lvl 4 hero immediately. Also remove the yeti, ghost and soul-less if the units are not tweaked. The new selection menu for the heroes actually really annoys me, I have to select a race then a unit instead of just picking my hero. Also I didn't check, but if the walking corpse is a normal walking corpse, that hero must also go.
3. Why the sudden change to +2 melee and +2 ranged damage, why can we not buy one at a time? There is a reason to buy one instead of 2 damage. One thing I liked about DotG was my ability to micro manage myself as much as I wanted. Helps separate new players from veterans.
4. Why combine ranged/melee strikes for so cheap? This makes the dwarf thunderer very strong(basically free melee strikes since I'm upgrading the ranged already).
5. Peasants cannot go past the enemies' shops right? Why is this? You upgrade peasants only to have them not finish the job for you? Is it because they can all die quite quickly? Also why only +5 hp? Why was +7hp bad? Also why does the cost go up so high when in fact peasants are pretty worthless since you can just kill them off for cheaper than buying an hp upgrade?
6. Speed +1 for +150 gold only? Hmm I'm not sure about the starting cost, I think it should be higher. Especially considering the case of the mobile dwarf thunderer now with +1 melee and +1 ranged strikes for each extra gun shot he intended to buy.

Things I liked:
1. The peasant GUI in the menu is great!
2. The ranged attack is interesting, very annoying truly. Also useful for getting turtle heroes.
3. Lucky Heroes. Does this actually do anything?
4. Bank robber blade!
5. Woah increase creep level. 0_0 NIIIIIIIICE
6. Yeti and peasant overpowering strategy basically not possible anymore!
Are you making this into a hero only game?

Side Questions:
1. maxhp upgrade for heroes, +10maxhp, +10%, +12 hp<-what? Why 12?
Post Reply