Skilled players don't think the game is too random

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

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JW
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Joined: November 10th, 2005, 7:06 am
Location: Chicago-ish, Illinois

Post by JW »

Look, I ahte getting screwed by the RNG just like anybody else. Really, I do.

The problem is that if you change the probabilities of the game there will still be extreme luck.

I, of course, hate the instance of extreme luck in both good and bad (it detracts from the strategy that is present in the game IMO), but I realize that extreme luck is always possible whenever chance is involved.

Unfortunately, this is the case unless you wish to take steps towards a biased luck system favoring the unfortunate; and this is not something I think should take place.

As for a deterministic Wesnoth, I doubt that would make for a very interesting MP environment. Wesnoth would truly become about planning the best moves for each faction on each map beforehand, micro-managing every move before the game is even played. Sounds pretty boring, and a LOT harder to do than chess!! :shock:

I actually think deterministic would be quite fun for SP, given the right environment, as it would seem more like there is only 1 opponent you're facing (the AI) and not the occasional 2nd (the RNG). The other main reason I say it might be nice is that over a campaign there are a huge number of repetitions for the RNG to make craziness happen. Extreme luck is thus far more likely to happen in SP than MP (given equal numbers of games).

Of course, I haven't tried the mod, and I don't really care to at this moment (nothing against the mod - I'm too busy with other Wesnoth things), so I can't say anything about the mod itself; but, if people want to play in such a fashion I don't see why anything should stop them. I do agree with Noy et al that the current level of randomness in MP is acceptable. It could perhaps be lightened through other means than a pure deterministic mode, but that would take a true overhauling of Wesnoth as we know it. It won't happen anytime soon, if at all.

This beign said, every game must have certain standards about all aspects that surround it. One of the aspects of Wesnoth that must remain stable to create any sort of basis for comparison is the level of randomness; whether the randomness stay at it's current level, or whether the randomness be reduced, the level must stay equal or else there are truly 2 different games being played (albeit extremely similar).

So yes, even if Wesnoth only has the current randomness because of its history, not only is that something that shouldn't just be thrown out the window, but it is also the current standard that players learn about, plan for, and play in.

Respect to Sauron for actually going out and creating something he wanted to create. We should all take a lesson from his proactiveness.
Dragon Master
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Joined: February 11th, 2006, 1:04 am
Location: Somewhere

Post by Dragon Master »

Sauron wrote:
Dragon Master wrote:Jesus Christ Sauron, ever heard of manners? You totally ignored my statement, I didn't even criticize your mod, and still you decided to argue. Fleshpeeler even decided to be nice to you, and you attacked him! So far all you've said has further proved my statements about you. a@#h$&%
I thanked him for support - in my country it is not considered an attack. You did attack me - using #@@#$@#$ - I retaliated. Normal thing. It seems you do not read too carefully/ do not attempt to understand what you have just read.

I am sad to give another post to the thread - but I can see 4 some ppl it is easier to post than to read/understand what is written by others :/
What the?!? If that's how you want to play Sauron, let's go. Once again you sidestepped my entire statement by just saying "well, I guess you don't read posts"
[impolite mode: active]
In MY country, although we don't often do it, it's better to ignore offensive comments and attacks so as not to lower yourself to your opponents level. You seem to think you know everything and that this mod you have made is a better version of Wesnoth, fine by me if you think that, but let me say one thing.
Would you play any card game where you knew the exact order of the deck?
Would you play any roleplaying game if you knew exactly how much damage you would deal and exactly if you would win or not?
Would you play any RTS if you knew the entire map and exactly how your opponent would play?
You see, randomness adds to games a little something normal people like to call "fun". If you want to do something without any form of randomness, play checkers against yourself. Chess and Checkers do have randomness, sure you know exactly how every piece interacts, but do you know how well your opponent plays or what stategies he will use? so tell me, do you find accounting fun?
[\impolite mode:off]
Let me be done with this thread by saying one thing, It's much easier to tear down someone else's arguement than make your own.
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JW
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Joined: November 10th, 2005, 7:06 am
Location: Chicago-ish, Illinois

Post by JW »

Speaking of which, DM, you've been known to attack people and tear down their arguments. :shock:

Let's not throw more stones than have been already, eh?
Dragon Master
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Joined: February 11th, 2006, 1:04 am
Location: Somewhere

Post by Dragon Master »

eh-heh, you got me there JW. Really nothing else to say.
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ivanovic
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Post by ivanovic »

Since this is nothing more than a flame war:
locked

There is now such a modification for Wesnoth. Some people might like to play it, others don't. That is the way open source works. Someone changes stuff like he likes it to have and then publishes it. No reason to flame these people. Everyone has to know himself which system he prefers. And I am quite sure that the deterministic verison is atm still quite far from being perfectly balanced but it might be possible to balance it somehow. See it more as some kind of mock up. If people want to work on something like this, let them do so.
I won't state my opinion in here if this is a good change or not. I just appreciate it, that someone not only demands something in the forum but also does the work himself. At least this should be respected.
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