Decline in MP Quality

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tsr
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Post by tsr »

Somewhat OT
What I think you need to realize is that game's design philosophy is not aimed at new players. its aimed at skilled players and the learning curve in MP is steep. The balancing system is the best example of that. Its not designed for a new player to easily grasp how to use the units, but for skilled players to take advantage of it to have more complex games. Its not designed for Hero wars. Its designed for 1v1s, 2v2s at 100~200GPV ect.

Thats the sad truth of it, and if you can't figure out who are the good players, or won't invest the time, I can't help you there, and we shouldn't program for it as well. The better players all know who each other are, and play with each other constantly. Those get the most fun out of the game, and they are the people this game should cater to, rather than the lowest common denomimator.
Ok, but how do us seriuos but unskilled players get practice so that we can be trusted by you veterans?

Is there some way of initiation, like showing off a replay with no losses on HttT - hard? (Not that I'm even close, but I would just like to have a measurement on when I can stop begging for mercy games in the lobby)

/tsr

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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn »

tsr wrote:Somewhat OT
What I think you need to realize is that game's design philosophy is not aimed at new players. its aimed at skilled players and the learning curve in MP is steep. The balancing system is the best example of that. Its not designed for a new player to easily grasp how to use the units, but for skilled players to take advantage of it to have more complex games. Its not designed for Hero wars. Its designed for 1v1s, 2v2s at 100~200GPV ect.

Thats the sad truth of it, and if you can't figure out who are the good players, or won't invest the time, I can't help you there, and we shouldn't program for it as well. The better players all know who each other are, and play with each other constantly. Those get the most fun out of the game, and they are the people this game should cater to, rather than the lowest common denomimator.
Ok, but how do us seriuos but unskilled players get practice so that we can be trusted by you veterans?

Is there some way of initiation, like showing off a replay with no losses on HttT - hard? (Not that I'm even close, but I would just like to have a measurement on when I can stop begging for mercy games in the lobby)

/tsr
I'd play you, but for some reason I'm not doing well lately...I'll always teach noobs in MP, but it can be annoying :P
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well

Noy
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Post by Noy »

Ok, but how do us seriuos but unskilled players get practice so that we can be trusted by you veterans?

Is there some way of initiation, like showing off a replay with no losses on HttT - hard? (Not that I'm even close, but I would just like to have a measurement on when I can stop begging for mercy games in the lobby)
You know what, I don't have a problem with new players, and neither do others, as long as they are civil, and willing to learn. Most experts are willing to help out a new player and teach him the ropes. Be rude about it, and they'll likely get thrown out of the game and replaced. Just be nice, and willing to listen, thats all.

Play a couple of games online before hand. after awhile you'll start to get who are the good players. They're usually on all the time, and play on the standard maps.

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Post by Noy »

oh, and MP is a completely different beast than the campaigns. You could be the best Campaign player and be terrible at MP.

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JW
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Post by JW »

tsr wrote:Ok, but how do us seriuos but unskilled players get practice so that we can be trusted by you veterans?

Is there some way of initiation, like showing off a replay with no losses on HttT - hard?
lol - yes!! All must follow my footsteps to be accepted! :twisted: [/joke]
(ps, I didn't have no losses)

Actually, beating campaigns on Hard generally will teach you how to use your units more tactically as you must be very precise in how you play. This helped me become more familiar with how units and groups of units interact across a variety of terrain layouts, so it taught me a lot. Make sure you don't use save-reload if you attempt this task because you'll just be cheating yourself and not learning anything.

But like Noy said, most "expert" players are fine with playing less skilled players, as long as they're civil. It's those bad players that are telling you what to do as they're getting slaughtered that are just maddening....



Also, what Noy said about catering towards skilled players, this is mostly for MP purposes. SP has several campaigns that are geared towards newer players as well as multiple difficulties to accomodate players of varying skill.

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Tomsik
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Post by Tomsik »

Idea: create rating system where players rate other players with + or - and that would let you see what others think about this guy.

There obviously should be some restrictions like 1 vote per player for one player(1 vote from one IP? But that cause problems with dynamic IP, best would be to check MAC adress, but SDL net doesn't let you to do that), and we would need nick-stealing-protection system then.

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Post by Moroder »

Tomsik wrote:Idea: create rating system where players rate other players with + or - and that would let you see what others think about this guy.
Not sure if it is that easy, people could mess others' rankings this way (a new player could rank the average ones a little too high and etc). Maybe a win/loss ranking system could work better.
Religion is nothing. I'm all about lifestyle. Mine is Christ, and I'll always respect yours. :wink:

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Post by Noy »

Moroder wrote:
Tomsik wrote:Idea: create rating system where players rate other players with + or - and that would let you see what others think about this guy.
Not sure if it is that easy, people could mess others' rankings this way (a new player could rank the average ones a little too high and etc). Maybe a win/loss ranking system could work better.
... Please read a thread before posting in it. I've just written 1000 words about why a win loss system is exactly what we DON'T want, then you go and suggest it.

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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn »

should this be bumped to ideas, or just left to die? (hopefully locked)
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well

Moroder
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Post by Moroder »

Noy wrote:... Please read a thread before posting in it. I've just written 1000 words about why a win loss system is exactly what we DON'T want, then you go and suggest it.
Sorry, big mistake. As you said, a ranking system could ruin a community, and Wesnoth doesn't need that kind of consequence. I wouldn't realize it until reading your posts.
Religion is nothing. I'm all about lifestyle. Mine is Christ, and I'll always respect yours. :wink:

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Maeglin Dubh
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Post by Maeglin Dubh »

Rating system in any form = bad. Why? Because immature users (the ones you want to curtail) will abuse it. Does anyone here remember when AIM had a warning system? There were buggers running amuk who would just hit the warn button continuously just to cripple someone's ability to chat. For giggles. How do we monitor who has the ability to rate others? Anyone can give any rating for any reason, and there isn't much anyone can do to stop them. Sure, you could rate them back. But then you get the same sort of people who run through music sites giving everything a rating of one out of five because they think they're clever. [/rant]

Bad idea.
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OlBudt
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Post by OlBudt »

I added bold and bold numbers to the quote. Or so I tried. But after writing for an hour and a half.. I need sleep.
Noy wrote:Next time please use quotes. 1.
This is not the point. You make it very clear that you dont have this problem, because you are not dealing with anonymous players. I would love to know who they are, but I dont. And the more people we have playing online, the bigger this problem will become.
2. See you don't get it. What you are proposing is completely unfeasible, and shows a lack of understanding of the problems associated with it.

3. First. Such a system is unfeasable. What is a disconnect? I don't know if you noticed, but this is an open source game, one where disconnects, crashes, ect happen quite frequently. Everybody has them, even me, and I'm on OSX. So disconnects don't really tell much. Some people crash once a game, return and play out their turn. I just watched a game where ond goblin, a very good player disconnected in a 4p and came back. Does that mean he was cheating? Or what about the person who leaves but has someone else take his place because he asked before hand? Or what about games that are saved to be continued later? Or how about two players that use the same IP, like Tux and Sargy, who are good players? It would be insanely hard to program a system for that. And it probably in the end wouldn't be that revealing of who was a nice player at all if it just had disconnects.


4.Secondly, you are ignoring my first point. While you want a system that just ranks players according to their "niceness" would inherently be used for competition purposes. Having wins or rankings would be something that people will feed off of. If you think swearing and trashtalking is bad now, just wait till you get players with 100+ wins talking down to new players, with no interest in the game save to get more and more wins. Thats alot bigger problem then the one you are describing.

5.In conclusion what you want is practically impossible. Even a limited system would be a massive undertaking. You'd also have to get a person to code it, and integrate it, and nobody is willing to do that right now. You're willing to register, but are you also willing to program and maintain a database of players? Not many people are.


6.What I think you need to realize is that game's design philosophy is not aimed at new players. its aimed at skilled players and the learning curve in MP is steep. The balancing system is the best example of that. Its not designed for a new player to easily grasp how to use the units, but for skilled players to take advantage of it to have more complex games. Its not designed for Hero wars. Its designed for 1v1s, 2v2s at 100~200GPV ect.

7.Thats the sad truth of it, and if you can't figure out who are the good players, or won't invest the time, I can't help you there, and we shouldn't program for it as well. The better players all know who each other are, and play with each other constantly. Those get the most fun out of the game, and they are the people this game should cater to, rather than the lowest common denomimator.
1. So now I'm using quotes.
2. Yes, I have a lack of understanding of every technical part of this game. Since when is this a reason for not trying to articulate that there is irritation in the online community and that I see / saw a very simple sollution to it. If this sollution appears not to be simple, because the experts say so, fine.
3. Your entire discussion about the tecnical problems and issues is with a real ranking system in mind and that it needs to be flawless. This is not what I try to propose here. And also, as this great game is developing further this is likely to happen less and less.
You say "Some people crash once a game, return and play out their turn." and you ask "Does that mean he was cheating?". No, this means such a person had a crash and returned. Why give such a person a 'flag' for cursing or quiting a game?
"Or what about the person who leaves but has someone else take his place because he asked before hand?" Same applies here, irrelivant situation.
"Or what about games that are saved to be continued later?" Does not apply to what I am proposing.
"Or how about two players that use the same IP, like Tux and Sargy, who are good players?" This is a really nice situation, actually. For example, Tux is harresing the online community with bad language. Next time Sargy goes online and cannot join a game. This will make Sargy wonder what happened and talk to Tux. Tux has to explain what was going on and Sargy will most likely expres his dislike with Tux's behaviour. This appears to be a perfect situation to me.
Also, this situation is quite uncommen.

You say that "It would be insanely hard to program a system for that. And it probably in the end wouldn't be that revealing of who was a nice player at all if it just had disconnects." This is again with a flawless rating system in mind. This is not what I am proposing. Maybe it is difficult (did a lot of programming but not in this field), but I know that finding an ip adres is not so difficult. The ingredients, as I see it, would be 3 variable, how many flags you received (2) and how many you gave (1 or 2) and maybe some function to make flags disappear after good behaviour online after time. That is all.

4. This clearly shows that you did not percieve what I was proposing, that is why I am now trying to to a better job at explaining myself. No winning scores, no losing stats, no average damage, no nothing for ranking player tactical analysis skilles or whatever.
Are there examples of badlanguage ratings or quiters in any online games? I do not know of such. People just get banned. But that is too severe for a lot of situations. And people change and learn to behave better. Especailly when there would be incentive to behave better because otherwise people will not play with you.

5. Yes, I am not willing to program it. I simply do not have the time for it at this point. But this is not an argument against my proposal now is it. I am sure (or expecting) that there will be more people discussing this as the community grows. And as that grows, chances are that there will come somebody up for this task, with the time and skills.

6. You say something very interesting here: "I think you need to realize is that game's design philosophy is not aimed at new players." This I did not know. Today I played with a person who said that he had just downloaded it today. In short, this could be the design, but apparently it is not used this way. And you need to realise that also.

7. That such a system may not be realised, so be it.
But please, read this part of your reply again and see what you are saying. I read in this a very polite way of saying to me that I should shut up and that my opinion does not matter, because this game is not for me (but solely for you, the real community, I presume) Now you may be a hot Wesnoth developer, and I thank you for helping creating such a great game, but that is just childish.
And as for the lowest common denominator. I have been reading this forum for half a year now, practically every day. Never posted anything because you guys were quick enough to post the correct answer already. Dont judge so quickly. Well. In short, you really pissed me off. But lets keep to the point and discuss really if this idea is a good idea or not.
Last edited by OlBudt on June 9th, 2006, 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sapient
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Post by Sapient »

*sigh*

I've heard this argument before, it's an old topic.
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8898

To paraphrase from my respose before:

I think a player's list of shame is a Bad Idea (tm). You have your own memory, and common sense. Use the time before the game starts to judge everyone's patience level. If someone says, 'gogogogo' or starts making drug/sex references before the game starts, then you probably don't want to play any large maps with that person. Apparently a lot of silly kids have started playing (as they periodically do), and they often don't stop to consider how much time they may have before starting a game.
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."

Noy
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Post by Noy »

OlBudt wrote: 3. Your entire discussion about the tecnical problems and issues is with a real ranking system in mind and that it needs to be flawless. This is not what I try to propose here. And also, as this great game is developing further this is likely to happen less and less.
Sorry, I made a mistake with what sort of system you want, but I've heard it before. In any case Maeglin Dubh's post outlines the problem with what you are proposing, and would be the crux of why I'd go against it.

Neither am I saying its a perfect system. However this isn't like other aspects of the game. It has to be fool proof, otherwise its going to be abused, moreso than any other aspect of the game's code. As Dubh pointed out, its something that can be easily abused. I can easily imagine a situation where some young hot head, after losing badly goes and makes 10 accounts and ruins someone else's reputation. Without such a system people don't really care.

OlBudt wrote:7. That such a system may not be realised, so be it.
But please, read this part of your reply again and see what you are saying. I read in this a very polite way of saying to me that I should shut up and that my opinion does not matter, because this game is not for me (but solely for you, the real community, I presume) Now you may be a hot Wesnoth developer, and I thank you for helping creating such a great game, but that is just childish.
No, I'm saying your opinion is wrong, and I'm pretty sure most of the long time players would agree with my point. The problem with the community, or newbs is overblown. This isn't some sort of denial with the state of affairs. I'm on every day, and I talk to players constantly. I won't deny that new players aren't a irritant from time to time, but its never that bad.

Moreover it is unclear whether your proposed system would do anything to change things. In most cases the problems you outline are not serial offenders, its a new player coming into the game... who usually leaves quite soon. How a flagging system would help this problem is doesn't make sense to me, since these people will likely leave pretty quickly once they get bored. I really don't think they care very much about a negative rating.... and you can't create a system under your proposal that will do anything. The only thing that is effective is when an admin comes in there and bans them. If its a serious problem, then you can come to the IRC channels and someone could deal with it.

The system we have today I think works overall. As Sapient noted, after awhile you get to know who are the good players, and you play with them constantly. It pushes people to keep the same names, and work by the honour system. And for the "regulars" it works brilliantly. What you are proposing really already exists today. There are players I know not to play with, and most of the others. Actually I must say that I really enjoy the community, and time I've spent to getting to know people.

I think this is clearly illustrated by the following quote. This is a pm sent to me by JW. I'm sorry to do this to him, but I think its quite good.
JW wrote: Making the game better for the good players will make sure the game continues to grow at what I call the "back end", adding more and more nuances. The "front end", where people come into the game, should be friendly, but frontloading the game is never something that should be done as it not only makes the game less enjoyable later but it also attracts people that are only in it for it's "newbie" appeal. Also, adding to the back end is like holding a carrot for new players to get better, which is a good thing as well.
In this post, JW sums up exactly how the game's philosophy works. We are happy with it, and we don't see a need to change the game in the ways you outline, because we already do it. I don't think a installed system that makes people pat each other on the back really is worth it, because it would just be superfluous to what we have already. Why would we want to put so much effort into something that would have such limited returns, is a major reason why it is unlikely you will ever see such a system installed.

Aloo
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Post by Aloo »

Ive been playing wesnoth for some time also on MP so please dont judge my post based on the post count.

How hard would it be to implement a system that would allow You to add personal notes to players in MP that would be accesible only to You (recorded only in Your game) I dont play MP often (4 times a month) so remembering who I had trouble last time is hard. If I could have notes and see them when players join it would help me and not harm players other wise. Also it would be noob proof - I woudnt care in a noob makes negative notes on me because its his personal notes that only he can see.

Please note I have no idea about programing so if its hard/impossible - too bad, I didnt know.

Just my idea so if its impossible or sensless - forget about it :)

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